[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[Ground Effect]

I personally feel the FIA, as usual, haven’t done a good job in formulating a rule. McLaren switching to Mercedes is a contractual obligation, which was in place several months ahead of the COVID-19 changes for 21/22. At the very least, McLaren should be allowed to optimise packaging of the new PU. I mean, from the 2 token rule, other teams are allowed to make performance enhancing changes to their chassis. The FIA shouldn’t assume or interpret the switch to Mercedes as a performance gain for McLaren, because Mercedes may power the top team, but they also power the bottom team.

[_cerber1]

[mwillems]

I personally feel the FIA, as usual, haven’t done a good job in formulating a rule. McLaren switching to Mercedes is a contractual obligation, which was in place several months ahead of the COVID-19 changes for 21/22. At the very least, McLaren should be allowed to optimise packaging of the new PU. I mean, from the 2 token rule, other teams are allowed to make performance enhancing changes to their chassis. The FIA shouldn’t assume or interpret the switch to Mercedes as a performance gain for McLaren, because Mercedes may power the top team, but they also power the bottom team.

Yeah but they also see all of the data, so I'm not sure it would be an interpretation. There was that furore when the FIA guy left for Renault with little or no notice period, who knew the ins and outs of all the engines if you recall. I don't know his name. They know the bottom line I think and produced this rule accordingly.

Edit: It was Marcin Budkowski and it was chassis not engine, but it is the same principal. The FIA know all the mappings and associated power levels, exactly how much fuel is used, have every bit of telemetry for the engines. I think the FIA gets called daft a few more times than it deserves.

[mwillems]

I was expecting Lance to be last of all drivers with a permeant seat, but not Verstappen near last also, that's an eye opener.

[bauc]

[diffuser]

I personally feel the FIA, as usual, haven’t done a good job in formulating a rule. McLaren switching to Mercedes is a contractual obligation, which was in place several months ahead of the COVID-19 changes for 21/22. At the very least, McLaren should be allowed to optimise packaging of the new PU. I mean, from the 2 token rule, other teams are allowed to make performance enhancing changes to their chassis. The FIA shouldn’t assume or interpret the switch to Mercedes as a performance gain for McLaren, because Mercedes may power the top team, but they also power the bottom team.

That cause you don't have the facts.

There was no contractual obligation. They could have postponed the change without any extra costs, bar the price difference between the two PUs.

To prevent a quarter of the grid going bankrupt, the FIA froze structural changes to the cars for 2021. That halted any contract obligation McLaren had to Merc, as it made it illegal to change the PU Manufactures.

McLaren wanting to go ahead with the PU change lobbied to allow the PU change. The FIA allowed the change saying they had to limit the structural changes to changes required to fit the PU only. The other teams started to complain. Some said they had flaws in there 2020 car designs that they didn't want to carry for 2021. Why should McLaren be allowed,etc, etc. The token system was born out of that. Now everyone has 2 tokens to do whatever structural changes they want as long as they conform to the token restrictions.

It has nothing to do with performance gain. It has to do with limiting structural changes to the 2020 cars to keep costs down. Now, of course in F1, nobody would perform any change unless it has a performance benefit....

Now the restrictions allow for McLaren to make the changes they need to shoe horn the Merc PU into the 2020 McLaren chassis, but not clean up the empty pockets left behind from movng a compressor from behind the PU to the front.

I presume they want to use 2021 to get the gremlins out, gather dating of the mating. This way they can optimize the packaging and reduce failures for 2022.

[trinidefender]

I personally feel the FIA, as usual, haven’t done a good job in formulating a rule. McLaren switching to Mercedes is a contractual obligation, which was in place several months ahead of the COVID-19 changes for 21/22. At the very least, McLaren should be allowed to optimise packaging of the new PU. I mean, from the 2 token rule, other teams are allowed to make performance enhancing changes to their chassis. The FIA shouldn’t assume or interpret the switch to Mercedes as a performance gain for McLaren, because Mercedes may power the top team, but they also power the bottom team.

That cause you don't have the facts.

There was no contractual obligation. They could have postponed the change without any extra costs, bar the price difference between the two PUs.

To prevent a quarter of the grid going bankrupt, the FIA froze structural changes to the cars for 2021. That halted any contract obligation McLaren had to Merc, as it made it illegal to change the PU Manufactures.

McLaren wanting to go ahead with the PU change lobbied to allow the PU change. The FIA allowed the change saying they had to limit the structural changes to changes required to fit the PU only. The other teams started to complain. Some said they had flaws in there 2020 car designs that they didn't want to carry for 2021. Why should McLaren be allowed,etc, etc. The token system was born out of that. Now everyone has 2 tokens to do whatever structural changes they want as long as they conform to the token restrictions.

It has nothing to do with performance gain. It has to do with limiting structural changes to the 2020 cars to keep costs down. Now, of course in F1, nobody would perform any change unless it has a performance benefit....

Now the restrictions allow for McLaren to make the changes they need to shoe horn the Merc PU into the 2020 McLaren chassis, but not clean up the empty pockets left behind from movng a compressor from behind the PU to the front.

I presume they want to use 2021 to get the gremlins out, gather dating of the mating. This way they can optimize the packaging and reduce failures for 2022.

McLaren had a contract for a PU with mercedes for 2021 and no contract for a PU with Renault. How exactly would McLaren be able to delay and get a Renault PU for another year? PU manufacturing have long lead times and manufactures need advanced warning to build parts. Mercedes would have already started planning to build more and Renault would have already started to scale back production.

Also stating, "There was no contractual obligation" is just as much of a factless guess as anyone elses opinion on the whole situation.

[SmallSoldier]

I personally feel the FIA, as usual, haven’t done a good job in formulating a rule. McLaren switching to Mercedes is a contractual obligation, which was in place several months ahead of the COVID-19 changes for 21/22. At the very least, McLaren should be allowed to optimise packaging of the new PU. I mean, from the 2 token rule, other teams are allowed to make performance enhancing changes to their chassis. The FIA shouldn’t assume or interpret the switch to Mercedes as a performance gain for McLaren, because Mercedes may power the top team, but they also power the bottom team.

That cause you don't have the facts.

There was no contractual obligation. They could have postponed the change without any extra costs, bar the price difference between the two PUs.

To prevent a quarter of the grid going bankrupt, the FIA froze structural changes to the cars for 2021. That halted any contract obligation McLaren had to Merc, as it made it illegal to change the PU Manufactures.

McLaren wanting to go ahead with the PU change lobbied to allow the PU change. The FIA allowed the change saying they had to limit the structural changes to changes required to fit the PU only. The other teams started to complain. Some said they had flaws in there 2020 car designs that they didn't want to carry for 2021. Why should McLaren be allowed,etc, etc. The token system was born out of that. Now everyone has 2 tokens to do whatever structural changes they want as long as they conform to the token restrictions.

It has nothing to do with performance gain. It has to do with limiting structural changes to the 2020 cars to keep costs down. Now, of course in F1, nobody would perform any change unless it has a performance benefit....

Now the restrictions allow for McLaren to make the changes they need to shoe horn the Merc PU into the 2020 McLaren chassis, but not clean up the empty pockets left behind from movng a compressor from behind the PU to the front.

I presume they want to use 2021 to get the gremlins out, gather dating of the mating. This way they can optimize the packaging and reduce failures for 2022.

I agree with most of what you’ve stated... But, there was no contractual obligation? There was a contract with Mercedes and no contract with Renault... Even when unlikely, Renault could have denied a PU for Mclaren in 2021 and Mercedes could have asked for the payments to be made for their units even if not installed in the car... There were / are contractual obligations in place between Mclaren and Mercedes and no contract with Renault, the FIA could have intervened and mediate in the situation, but at the end they would have no say in the outcome, that’s why the situation unfolded the way it did (with Mclaren allowed to switch and the Token system) it was a good compromise for everyone.


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[the EDGE]

Now the restrictions allow for McLaren to make the changes they need to shoe horn the Merc PU into the 2020 McLaren chassis, but not clean up the empty pockets left behind from moving a compressor from behind the PU to the front.

I think that's a bit of an over-simplification Diffuser. McLaren are permitted to make any changes necessary to fit the Merc Pu as long as they convince the FIA the change is needed, and not simply being done for a performance gain.

using your example for instance, if McLaren have to move a compressor then chances are something will already be in the place where that compressor needs to go, so that in turn will need moving and so on like one of those little picture puzzles with the moving squares we used to play with as kids (well if your as old as me anyway!)

Who's to say the final picture of the instillation won't have filled that little gap left behind, or that little gap can't result in a tighter engine cover which is free to change without token use

Sure, McLaren won't be able to start from scratch or make all the changes/gains they would like too, but like everything in f1 (including young driver tests), the rules are there for interpretation & manipulation. I'm sure McLaren will do everything they can to assure the FIA the changes they need to make are necessary for instillation, for the best performance gains they can get away with. That is after all the job of every F1 technical director

[SmallSoldier]

On a different note, the team principals have picked their top 10 of drivers for the season... Not very surprising on the top 3, but it seems they might give Lando a bit more credit that some around here:




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[the EDGE]

On a different note, the team principals have picked their top 10 of drivers for the season... Not very surprising on the top 3, but it seems they might give Lando a bit more credit that some around here:

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Its great to be one of only 2 teams to have both drivers in the top 10, and the only team in the top 8 (or the top 7 next year lol)

Like the team bosses I think Lando has been superb. He's still relatively young and inexperienced compared to others but he's had the right attitude from day 1, both on & off the track where he's already one of the most popular drivers.

He's always demonstrated his speed and ability in quali, started last years races cautiously but now consistently moves forward at the start instead of backwards and proven he can race wheel to wheel with respect for the other driver and bring the car home (very often in the points)

In the race, at times, he's still struggling to match the outright pace of Carlos or be able to take the fight to the car in front in the same way as he does, but he has been consistently in the mix and more or less error free.. Something that Carlos hasn't always been. I have no doubt he has meet if not exceeded the performance targets set by team and himself and he will continue to grow and develop at the same rate he has been and maximising his race pace is only a matter of time

You can certainly see the F1 stars of the younger generation shining brightly in F1 at the moment far more than you could a few years ago and I'm pretty sure there will be place for Lando among them

[SmallSoldier]

On a different note, the team principals have picked their top 10 of drivers for the season... Not very surprising on the top 3, but it seems they might give Lando a bit more credit that some around here:

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Its great to be one of only 2 teams to have both drivers in the top 10, and the only team in the top 8 (or the top 7 next year lol)

Like the team bosses I think Lando has been superb. He's still relatively young and inexperienced compared to others but he's had the right attitude from day 1, both on & off the track where he's already one of the most popular drivers.

He's always demonstrated his speed and ability in quali, started last years races cautiously but now consistently moves forward at the start instead of backwards and proven he can race wheel to wheel with respect for the other driver and bring the car home (very often in the points)

In the race, at times, he's still struggling to match the outright pace of Carlos or be able to take the fight to the car in front in the same way as he does, but he has been consistently in the mix and more or less error free.. Something that Carlos hasn't always been. I have no doubt he has meet if not exceeded the performance targets set by team and himself and he will continue to grow and develop at the same rate he has been and maximising his race pace is only a matter of time

You can certainly see the F1 stars of the younger generation shining brightly in F1 at the moment far more than you could a few years ago and I'm pretty sure there will be place for Lando among them

The P3 in the Constructors Championship this season is in large part due to both Carlos and Lando and it’s not only their consistency through the year, it is also the fact that they have brought the car home most often than not... A pretty telling stat is the amount of laps raced this season, where Lando top the chart while Stroll had the least amount of laps raced.

I understand the enthusiasm that a lot of fans have and the expectations that can be build upon that, but I agree with your opinion that Norris has exceeded expectations this season, which was arguably harder than even previous one... He had one of the toughest team mates on Carlos, who has a lot of momentum, especially in the second half of the season and has showed everyone that he should be in that discussion of top drivers in F1, he has also had to deal with beating cars that where stronger than Mclaren in most races (RP) or that where pretty close (Renault) and the pressure that delivering also places on someone (I can fathom dealing with the amount of pressures they deal with when I was 21, my main point of anxiety was if I had enough money for a beer during the weekend).

What for many may have been his biggest drawback, for me what his biggest strength... The fact that he was “too cautious” and lost some positions at the start of the race actually helped him finish those races, been “smart” sometimes is better than been a “hero” (Leclerc comes to mind)... His job is to bring the car home with the most amount of points possible and I believe he did great in that regard.

We also can forget that it is really his second season in F1, adjusting to a car that may not be on the sweet spot every weekend or that has it’s balance change through the weekend or the race is something that you learn only with seat time, therefore it hasn’t surprised me that in those weekends where Mclaren was struggling for pace, Carlos was the faster driver, those additional 4 years in the sport count a lot.

It may be very controversial, but I still believe that he is one of the best of the latest generation (better than Russell, maybe not at Leclerc’s level yet)... And I base this on the amount of on track mistakes they have done in the last couple of seasons where Norris has kept it cleaner... From an speed perspective it is difficult to judge both since not only are them in very different cars, they also have had very different level team mates to be measured against, which makes Russell look probably better.


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[diffuser]

Now the restrictions allow for McLaren to make the changes they need to shoe horn the Merc PU into the 2020 McLaren chassis, but not clean up the empty pockets left behind from moving a compressor from behind the PU to the front.

I think that's a bit of an over-simplification Diffuser. McLaren are permitted to make any changes necessary to fit the Merc Pu as long as they convince the FIA the change is needed, and not simply being done for a performance gain.

using your example for instance, if McLaren have to move a compressor then chances are something will already be in the place where that compressor needs to go, so that in turn will need moving and so on like one of those little picture puzzles with the moving squares we used to play with as kids (well if your as old as me anyway!)

Who's to say the final picture of the instillation won't have filled that little gap left behind, or that little gap can't result in a tighter engine cover which is free to change without token use

Sure, McLaren won't be able to start from scratch or make all the changes/gains they would like too, but like everything in f1 (including young driver tests), the rules are there for interpretation & manipulation. I'm sure McLaren will do everything they can to assure the FIA the changes they need to make are necessary for instillation, for the best performance gains they can get away with. That is after all the job of every F1 technical director

Sorry I was refering to the Renault PU presently having the turbo's compressor behind the PU where Merc has it in front. That Key has already said publically that the FIA are preventing him doing everything he would like to do or could possibly do to improve the aero around the PU. He said something along those lines.

[diffuser]

I personally feel the FIA, as usual, haven’t done a good job in formulating a rule. McLaren switching to Mercedes is a contractual obligation, which was in place several months ahead of the COVID-19 changes for 21/22. At the very least, McLaren should be allowed to optimise packaging of the new PU. I mean, from the 2 token rule, other teams are allowed to make performance enhancing changes to their chassis. The FIA shouldn’t assume or interpret the switch to Mercedes as a performance gain for McLaren, because Mercedes may power the top team, but they also power the bottom team.

That cause you don't have the facts.

There was no contractual obligation. They could have postponed the change without any extra costs, bar the price difference between the two PUs.

To prevent a quarter of the grid going bankrupt, the FIA froze structural changes to the cars for 2021. That halted any contract obligation McLaren had to Merc, as it made it illegal to change the PU Manufactures.

McLaren wanting to go ahead with the PU change lobbied to allow the PU change. The FIA allowed the change saying they had to limit the structural changes to changes required to fit the PU only. The other teams started to complain. Some said they had flaws in there 2020 car designs that they didn't want to carry for 2021. Why should McLaren be allowed,etc, etc. The token system was born out of that. Now everyone has 2 tokens to do whatever structural changes they want as long as they conform to the token restrictions.

It has nothing to do with performance gain. It has to do with limiting structural changes to the 2020 cars to keep costs down. Now, of course in F1, nobody would perform any change unless it has a performance benefit....

Now the restrictions allow for McLaren to make the changes they need to shoe horn the Merc PU into the 2020 McLaren chassis, but not clean up the empty pockets left behind from movng a compressor from behind the PU to the front.

I presume they want to use 2021 to get the gremlins out, gather dating of the mating. This way they can optimize the packaging and reduce failures for 2022.

McLaren had a contract for a PU with mercedes for 2021 and no contract for a PU with Renault. How exactly would McLaren be able to delay and get a Renault PU for another year? PU manufacturing have long lead times and manufactures need advanced warning to build parts. Mercedes would have already started planning to build more and Renault would have already started to scale back production.

Also stating, "There was no contractual obligation" is just as much of a factless guess as anyone elses opinion on the whole situation.

I can't find it now but I'm pretty sure I read a Journalist ask Renault if they could supply McLaren in 2021 and it was answered by Cyril Abiteboul at the time, that they could if McLaren wanted.

EDIT

With Regards to Merc lead time to manufacture. They are already supplying 2 other teams. Pretty sure they don't have 9 PUs for all 3 teams ready for race 1. They Probably have 1 per team, plus all the parts to assemble 1 more each. They also need PUs for testing. I'm sure they could suck up McLaren's PUs fairly easily and scale back the manufacturing in time without incuring costs.

[SmallSoldier]

Now the restrictions allow for McLaren to make the changes they need to shoe horn the Merc PU into the 2020 McLaren chassis, but not clean up the empty pockets left behind from moving a compressor from behind the PU to the front.

I think that's a bit of an over-simplification Diffuser. McLaren are permitted to make any changes necessary to fit the Merc Pu as long as they convince the FIA the change is needed, and not simply being done for a performance gain.

using your example for instance, if McLaren have to move a compressor then chances are something will already be in the place where that compressor needs to go, so that in turn will need moving and so on like one of those little picture puzzles with the moving squares we used to play with as kids (well if your as old as me anyway!)

Who's to say the final picture of the instillation won't have filled that little gap left behind, or that little gap can't result in a tighter engine cover which is free to change without token use

Sure, McLaren won't be able to start from scratch or make all the changes/gains they would like too, but like everything in f1 (including young driver tests), the rules are there for interpretation & manipulation. I'm sure McLaren will do everything they can to assure the FIA the changes they need to make are necessary for instillation, for the best performance gains they can get away with. That is after all the job of every F1 technical director

Sorry I was refering to the Renault PU presently having the turbo's compressor behind the PU where Merc has it in front. That Key has already said publically that the FIA are preventing him doing everything he would like to do or could possibly do to improve the aero around the PU. He said something along those lines.

Key’s comments in regards to this subject:

“In normal times you’d install it and use the benefits of a tighter package – which is what you get with the architecture of Mercedes engine – to the full. Whereas we’ve had to make minimal changes to our car to allow us to effectively put a Mercedes engine in our car designed for our current engine.”

“So whilst that’s been very well discussed with the FIA, we’ve come to a good agreement on how to keep those changes realistic for us, but also within the bounds of minimal changes, that has worked. But typically, you wouldn’t do that. You’d go further than that and exploit it a little bit more. So there’s been a few compromises there.”

I believe he means that they can’t take full advantage of the new architecture because the chassis is frozen, but even if they would have 2 tokens available, they probably wouldn’t have been able to take full advantage of it either.


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