Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

They should allow more dyno time in 2021 if they do the wngine freeze. I for one do not agree with it one bit just to let you know. Engines should be free to keep things exciting. The others should not be punished because F1 isn't attractive to Honda board room anymore.

Back in the TJI matter I have been doing some reading on injection methods. The sideways injector suggests that the piston is beign used to guide the fuel spray... In what fashion... And wher to.. Nobody but Honda engineers know.

It could guide it up as in a second rich stratified injection. But does this go through the holes of of the pre-chamber fast enough to get to where tge spark plug is?



I think i see that the rotating chamber that is in the cbr tji bike engine... Can be used! It makes sense now.. Even with one injector. If the comrpession ratio is not altered by doing this it should be legal...

I see nothing exciting about spending $x00 million per year to gain 20-30hp. I see it as absolute insanity, freezing engines or limiting their development severely is necessary to make this sustainable. Because it's so expensive, and the competition is so fierce for such small gains, naturally it will be incredibly secretive. So in a sense the cost hides the marvel of engineering these power units are. Thinking of how much it costs to develop something, then giving that away to someone else, who sidesteps all your development research. It would be infuriating.

The engine budget should be roughly half of the team budget and no more. ~$85 million maximum, it's currently ~3-4 times as much. It's ridiculous.

[63l8qrrfy6]

I agree that the costs are huge for what is in relative terms very little development.
The figures I remember being quoted say that 0.1s per lap worth of engine power is close to 10 times more expensive than 0.1 s per lap worth of aero development.

In terms of engine spending the figures I have put Renault around the 100 million EUR mark per year and Merc and Honda in the 150-200 million EUR bracket. Merc is expected to reduce their budget significantly, probably to Renault's level next year. I don't have anything on Ferrari but I would not be surprised if they actually spent more compared to Honda and Merc.

All in all I think Renault should get more credit for doing a stellar job with by far the smallest budget on the grid.

[godlameroso]

Renault is funded partially by the French government. They spend as much as anyone when all the funding sources are accounted for.

[63l8qrrfy6]

The french govt pays to keep the large plants going and workers in their jobs, not for exotic F1 activities.

[_cerber1]

Renault is funded partially by the French government. They spend as much as anyone when all the funding sources are accounted for.

This does not apply to F1 . Red Bull, in the days of Renault motors, all the time reproached the French for not wanting to spend a lot of money on their motors. As you can see now, they have dramatically changed their minds.

[godlameroso]

The french govt pays to keep the large plants going and workers in their jobs, not for exotic F1 activities.

The facilities the government pay for are too much for your average F1 team that isn't Ferrari, Mercedes, or Honda. Sure the facilities aren't built with the aim of doing exotic F1 stuff, but you still need them to develop the engines.

Things like engine foundries aren't cheap, or widely available.

Last year Renault added 4,000 sq meters to their facilities to install new dynos, and other equipment. Where did the funding for that come from?

[PlatinumZealot]

Renault is like honda in that the engine respurces are shared between racing and street.

[PlatinumZealot]

Back in the TJI matter I have been doing some reading on injection methods. The sideways injector suggests that the piston is beign used to guide the fuel spray... In what fashion... And wher to.. Nobody but Honda engineers know.

I think most of the injection occurs with the piston down the bore - no guiding.

Gonna draw a diagram.. The way i envision it the first spray, the homogenizing spray, goes down the bore and is heavily mixed with the inlet air. The second spray, to make the stratified rich plume, is piston/air guided directly upwards into the pre-chamber.

To make it easy for the rich cloud of fuel to makw it into the pre-chamber i can see where the moving pre-chamber door could work (if legal). The door (with nozzles built in) opens to let in the rich spray, then it closes before the sprak plug ignites the fuel mix. Then those jets would ignite the rest of the homogenous mixture in the main chamber.

[holeindalip]

In my experience of high pressure water jet systems, it is possible to use one injector with different spray patterns. One injector would have to be fired twice as stated but I’m sure if the high pressure water jet industry can do it the power unit manufacturers are more than capable to work with an injector company to achieve exactly what’s needed....

[gruntguru]

Back in the TJI matter I have been doing some reading on injection methods. The sideways injector suggests that the piston is beign used to guide the fuel spray... In what fashion... And wher to.. Nobody but Honda engineers know.

I think most of the injection occurs with the piston down the bore - no guiding.

Gonna draw a diagram.. The way i envision it the first spray, the homogenizing spray, goes down the bore and is heavily mixed with the inlet air. The second spray, to make the stratified rich plume, is piston/air guided directly upwards into the pre-chamber.

To make it easy for the rich cloud of fuel to makw it into the pre-chamber i can see where the moving pre-chamber door could work (if legal). The door (with nozzles built in) opens to let in the rich spray, then it closes before the sprak plug ignites the fuel mix. Then those jets would ignite the rest of the homogenous mixture in the main chamber.

A door would be problematic at many levels and little benefit IMO. Throughout the compression stroke, charge is being squeezed into the pre-chamber, so no flow comes out of the pre' until TDC or ignition whichever happens first. (Usually ignition)

[PlatinumZealot]

A door would be problematic at many levels and little benefit IMO. Throughout the compression stroke, charge is being squeezed into the pre-chamber, so no flow comes out of the pre' until TDC or ignition whichever happens first. (Usually ignition)

Maybe i am not intelligent enough to understand how a moving set of particles respond in a gas compressing in the same direction... Would veloctiy increase? Decrease? Or would it squash with the pressure wave? And what about the less conc. mixture already in the pre-chamber? Why wouldnt the spray diffuse faster to other parts of yhe main chamber? Is the pressure wave from compression coming up slower than the movement of the spray?
I suppose velocity effects are more dominant than concentration effects (particles acting to equalize partial pressures).. So my difficulty is visualing how the spray would neatly go through the holes into the pre-chamber... And how repeatable it would be each time. (I think of pushing a group of pool balls in one direction and predicting how many will go into the pockets).

This is why i was thinking an pre-chamber with an opening door would be better. If you will, bigger pool table pockets.

Yes more moving parts, calls to mind Hyundai's variable duration cam... But who would have thought that could be reliable? But they found a way.

[gruntguru]

No need to over-complicate it. The injector sprays and creates a rich mixture cloud in the vicinity of the pre-chamber. The piston is rising, increasing the pressure in the main chamber. The pressure increase causes flow into the pre-chamber. Guess what goes in.

[tangodjango]

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/75716/co ... eason.html
This article says Honda is rumoured to be bringing 40 Hp next year. Can any of the expert's on this thread comment whether the quoted text makes any sense? (It was in the comments section)


"Honda having made steps forward in utilising new mechanisms within combustion chamber, along lines those used by Merc but taking principle even further.. Argument was engine could produce same power but a reduction in fuel usage. (whole idea is for bulk of chamber to be well below stoicometric 14.7 ratio but portion shown to spark plug well above it)
Argument was save fuel so that more available for max power when needed. (when numerous engine modes were stopped, Merc were presented with problems utilising the advantage)
Suspect Honda may have found a way to utilise concept without massive changes to Engine modes. They do so on bike engines by using an indirect injector for initial flame front, but then a second direct one for bulk of combustion.
Interestingly Mazda have utilised compression ignition combined with spark timing on their sky active range of engines for a few years now. With petrol engines running exceptionally high CR without pre-detonation.. Honda may have found a way to improve combustion technology."

[_cerber1]

I think this is someone's fantasy. You cannot find out what the PU manufacturer is working on until he personally tells you this, everything else is speculation and assumptions. The same goes for the power achieved in the off-season.

[63l8qrrfy6]

Mostly bollocks - the mixture is lean (AFR is high) in the bulk of the cylinder and slightly rich (low AFR) in the pre chamber. The opposite of what they say.

The reason is not to decrease fuel consumption - the reason is to increase the thermal efficiency which leads to an increase in power and a reduction in consumption for a given fuel mass flow rate.

Whenever an article says team X does the same as team Y but better and no one really knows what team Y does in the first place because it is generally a well guarded secret you just know it's all rubbish. All we know is all 4 manufacturers use some form of pre-chamber and we have a rough idea how the injector is positioned based on some of the combustion concepts Honda have shown as well as the location of the fuel rails on some of the engines.

On the other hand 40 hp gain sounds plausible given the very long development period imposed by the covid engine regs and the general development pace suggested in several interviews (Andy Cowell did state the thermal efficiency in 2014 and we know roughly when they hit 50% because they bragged about it) and other more credible sources.
Just pure extrapolation though, nothing technical behind it.