Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric

[NL_Fer]

Are you even serious? Looks like you just don’t want to understand.

[RedNEO]

Like I said it’s not my fault that I see what they are saying. The alternative is what exactly? Thinking they all don’t know what they are talking about and electric is the future?

[hUirEYExbN]

You’ve said all of this before and like the first time I’ll point you to what manufacturers are saying instead of me..

Toto “And there are premium auto manufacturers such as Daimler who are still investing into internal combustion engines, because in combination with these sustainable fuels, it is a much better carbon footprint than some of the electric vehicles today, where the energy resource is provided by coal or gas.

In that respect, I believe that in Formula 1, it is about technology transfer, we should be leading the pack with sustainable fuels and biofuels in collaboration with our fuel suppliers”

Toto is not saying that biofuels are the future and electric has no place. He is saying that biofuels are part of the future in circumstances when all electric isn't as clean (due to source), biofuels will fill in that gap. They will also (as has been repeatedly stated with valid sources) find use in legacy and competition vehicles, as well as air and sea transport.

Just because a company is developing new ICEs, doesn't mean they don't see a future in electric. It makes sense to develop more efficient engines to clean up the transition to more sustainable power sources. Formula 1 has to be a fuel burning formula because they can't be an electric formula. As that is the case it makes sense for them to work with biofuel development to clean their image up and be a technology based formula in as many ways as they can.

[DChemTech]

The statement doesn’t just make sense it’s undeniable.

Electric vehicles main energy resource is coal and gas

The main energy resource of e-fuelled ICE vehicles is Co2

The carbon footprint for e-fuelled ICE’s is much better than electric vehicles

Energy density and infrastructure is also much better for e-fuelled ICE vehicles than electric vehicles

The FIA agrees with this assessment and backs it. Going as far as providing teams with barrels of efuel to make there own and setting a target to be 100% powered by them

Seems pretty clear cut, no?

Which part doesn’t make sense?

In regards to the sustainability we simply don’t have enough information how they have achieved this with the second generation e-fuels to say either way how effective it will be compared to the outdated information that’s available today. What’s clear is it’s moving forwards even outside F1, F1 will just accelerate the efficiency and availability of it through all these suppliers and manufacturers working towards that net zero emissions goal in 2030. I can’t see how batteries can somehow overcome everything listed above with all this in mind.

All these points were addressed, at length. You make hugely botched assumptions, show very poor comprehension of the process (both technical and natural) and you try to project that poor comprehension on others (despite others actually substantiating their arguments, and repeatedly explaining them further if misrepresented by you), you hold e-fuels to completely different standards than batteries in your 'evaluation', ignore system boundaries and consistently present false dichotomies or strawman arguments. I am not wasting another minute on dealing with these points again. If you want to understand my objections, read back.

[RedNEO]

You’ve said all of this before and like the first time I’ll point you to what manufacturers are saying instead of me..

Toto “And there are premium auto manufacturers such as Daimler who are still investing into internal combustion engines, because in combination with these sustainable fuels, it is a much better carbon footprint than some of the electric vehicles today, where the energy resource is provided by coal or gas.

In that respect, I believe that in Formula 1, it is about technology transfer, we should be leading the pack with sustainable fuels and biofuels in collaboration with our fuel suppliers”

Toto is not saying that biofuels are the future and electric has no place. He is saying that biofuels are part of the future in circumstances when all electric isn't as clean (due to source), biofuels will fill in that gap. They will also (as has been repeatedly stated with valid sources) find use in legacy and competition vehicles, as well as air and sea transport.

Just because a company is developing new ICEs, doesn't mean they don't see a future in electric. It makes sense to develop more efficient engines to clean up the transition to more sustainable power sources. Formula 1 has to be a fuel burning formula because they can't be an electric formula. As that is the case it makes sense for them to work with biofuel development to clean their image up and be a technology based formula in as many ways as they can.

Its not just an F1 thing because manufacturers are dropping Formula E to invest in e-fuels like Porsche and BMW. I’m not saying batteries don’t have a future at all I’m just saying what we are seeing is the billions of the cars and infrastructure in place today will be able to transition to efuels because it’s already compatible with them and offers a better path to carbon neutrality and sustainability.

[RedNEO]

The statement doesn’t just make sense it’s undeniable.

Electric vehicles main energy resource is coal and gas

The main energy resource of e-fuelled ICE vehicles is Co2

The carbon footprint for e-fuelled ICE’s is much better than electric vehicles

Energy density and infrastructure is also much better for e-fuelled ICE vehicles than electric vehicles

The FIA agrees with this assessment and backs it. Going as far as providing teams with barrels of efuel to make there own and setting a target to be 100% powered by them

Seems pretty clear cut, no?

Which part doesn’t make sense?

In regards to the sustainability we simply don’t have enough information how they have achieved this with the second generation e-fuels to say either way how effective it will be compared to the outdated information that’s available today. What’s clear is it’s moving forwards even outside F1, F1 will just accelerate the efficiency and availability of it through all these suppliers and manufacturers working towards that net zero emissions goal in 2030. I can’t see how batteries can somehow overcome everything listed above with all this in mind.

All these points were addressed, at length. You make hugely botched assumptions, show very poor comprehension of the process (both technical and natural) and you try to project that poor comprehension on others (despite others actually substantiating their arguments, and repeatedly explaining them further if misrepresented by you), you hold e-fuels to completely different standards than batteries in your 'evaluation', ignore system boundaries and consistently present false dichotomies or strawman arguments. I am not wasting another minute on dealing with these points again. If you want to understand my objections, read back.

That fine with me. I’ve yet to see an argument that actually shows how electric is better than efuels at achieving these objectives and I guess neither do the people who are investing in these technologies going forwards either.

[Big Tea]

Here is something for you, just to show I am neutral on this

[rjsa]

Just bring the 20k V10 back. I’ll even take the flip flop with it.

[Just_a_fan]

There isn’t just ‘one way’ or one thing you can extract co2 from. There are so many avenues so it’s really a non-issue that nobody else seems to be concerned about.

Watching this thread, I really think you have failed to understand more or less everything that has been presented to you.

Independent of that however, people can have different opinions about the energy mix and how it will/should change over time - and you don't need to flip out when they are different to yours.

It’s actually the other way around. I’ve understood why F1 and the FIA together with their suppliers are investing in these e-fuels as a legitimate and better alternative to batteries. It’s up to you whether you want to disagree with them but it’s not my responsibility to change your mind. And I didn’t flip out, why would I? I’m happy they’ve found a better solution and at how confident they are they have even set a zero emissions target of 2030 - far ahead of the 2050 goal set by governments.

The FIA thinks F1 would be better using biofuels than either fossil fuel or batteries. Well, batteries aren't going to give F1 levels of performance, but there is also another series that has exclusive license for battery single seaters from the FIA, so F1 couldn't do it anyway. Biofuels are a better sell than fossil fuels for F1 - good eco PR.

That's not the same as the FIA thinking that every car on the planet will be powered by biofuels. No one thinks that. Well, no one other than you.

[Just_a_fan]

The statement doesn’t just make sense it’s undeniable.

Electric vehicles main energy resource is coal and gas

The main energy resource of e-fuelled ICE vehicles is Co2

That's just incorrect.

Electric vehicles can and do make use of renewable energy e.g. wind, PV etc.

CO2 isn't the efuel energy source - it's part of the energy store. Efuel energy sources are the same electric vehicles. Wind, PV and even coal / gas.

Remember also that efuels need a lot of energy to make. Indeed, you need to put in more energy than you get out.

[rjsa]

The statement doesn’t just make sense it’s undeniable.

Electric vehicles main energy resource is coal and gas

The main energy resource of e-fuelled ICE vehicles is Co2

That's just incorrect.

Electric vehicles can and do make use of renewable energy e.g. wind, PV etc.

CO2 isn't the efuel energy source - it's part of the energy store. Efuel energy sources are the same electric vehicles. Wind, PV and even coal / gas.

Remember also that efuels need a lot of energy to make. Indeed, you need to put in more energy than you get out.

Actually an ice running on ethanol is running on solar energy used to capture atmospheric co2 and ground water and combine thrm in hidrocarbons and o2.

[Just_a_fan]

The statement doesn’t just make sense it’s undeniable.

Electric vehicles main energy resource is coal and gas

The main energy resource of e-fuelled ICE vehicles is Co2

That's just incorrect.

Electric vehicles can and do make use of renewable energy e.g. wind, PV etc.

CO2 isn't the efuel energy source - it's part of the energy store. Efuel energy sources are the same electric vehicles. Wind, PV and even coal / gas.

Remember also that efuels need a lot of energy to make. Indeed, you need to put in more energy than you get out.

Actually an ice running on ethanol is running on solar energy used to capture atmospheric co2 and ground water and combine thrm in hidrocarbons and o2.

Plus the energy required to process the ethanol, of course...it's still energy that needs to be used to make efuels rather than do something else like run house lighting.

And as has already been explained by others, we don't have the capacity to make enough fuel to replace all fossil-derived hydrocarbons with photosynthetic hydrocarbons. That's because we'd need to turn over our food land to make fuel. And that's just silly.

[Just_a_fan]

The FIA is wanting to be net zero etc in a short timescale. A laudable ambition.

Does it include every aspect of motorsport / F1 or just the cars on track?

Look at all the support infrastructure, from road sweepers for the tracks to motorhomes to freight aircraft flying it all around the globe. Is all of this to be net zero? That will be impressive if they can achieve it.

[gruntguru]

There are easy ways to get to net zero eg just pay someone to offset your emissions by planting trees, sequestering carbon in soil etc etc. Much like the sustainable fuels "solution" - its only a bandaid while we get to longer term solutions eg solar -> grid electricity -> BEV. This is still the front-runner with hydrogen powering fuel-cell EV's in second place.
- Biofuels are NOT a long term solution - the required quantities of land, sunlight and water will never exist.
- Fuel from atmospheric CO2 requires enormous amounts of energy - several times the energy required to power a BEV. Don't forget that any combustion engine is only going to convert less than 40% of the fuel energy into propulsion. (and emit heat and toxic exhaust at the vehicle location - in cities.)

[RedNEO]

Helmut Marko suggesting the new engine regs may eliminate the MGU-H.

“If the hints become true that the new engine is much simpler in design; that the MGU-H is eliminated, and that it remains innovative but the annual cost limit is somewhere around 50 million, then it's no longer such a complex issue as the current engine,” he explained.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... n=widget-1