Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric

[Big Tea]

nightvision police helicopter footage seems to show almost all of the heat going into the road being from the tyres

ie EVs (being heavier) would heat the road more than ICEVs do


the heat island effect presumably has some benefit in reducing heating system energies

my ICE takes in eg 1200 cc of air - and exhausts a (much ?) bigger volume
what is the real effect on the city-size bubble of gas that fills the city ?


isn't HI is now conveniently ignored by the expert consensus that tells children how much climate warming is and will be ?

There is the cooling system of the car via radiator (fan) plus radiation and some convection from the engine and exhaust system. Probably not a huge amount in the scale of things, but some

[Tommy Cookers]

No, it isn't
https://skepticalscience.com//urban-hea ... effect.htm

I thank you

though I now see that what I had (somewhere !) in mind was the biasing of the 'HI compensation'.....
by extensive and relentless shuffling of the temperature measurement sites ie 'polluting the data set'
this apparently shown by (some) apparently genuine actual meteorologists (not economists or environmentalists)

someone selling 500gm of sugar must prove the traceability of his claim (of 500gm)
but those selling global warming can do so without traceability

and eg .... re 'sea level rise'
the NOAS set aside 150 years of tide gauge measurement continuity (since 1979 using satellite measurements only)
but can't find anyone on the coast whose sea level has risen

[hollus]

OK, OK, mea culpa.
Let’s not go into discussing climate change, please. Not the place.

[Edax]

OK, OK, mea culpa.
Let’s not go into discussing climate change, please. Not the place.

It is kind of unavoidable. F1 really dug itself into a hole going the green tour. Going as fast as possible on a stretch of dinosaur gooey will always be net negative. Better do as alpine skying and present digging out half a mountain to have some rich kids have fun in the snow as being in touch with nature.

But to get back to engines. Practically thinking I think the best F1 can do is to go for a V6 hybrid, and homologate that together with Indy. That would benefit the teams the most. McLaren can run both Indy and F1 with one engine, same for Haas. Honda can keep running both as well. We might even see Ferrari back at Indy. Or a Chevy in the back of the Haas F1.

[RedNEO]

F1 is on the right path now with e-fuels. They see that batteries are toxic for the environment with there production and heavy reliance on coal and gas to power them let alone the fact you can’t recycle them. E-fuels kills two birds with one stone, it eliminates the mgu-h and allows F1 to have proper sound again and it also actually makes a positive difference to the environment instead of just adding more co2 like the cumbersome batteries.

I think a two stroke engine powered by the latest e-fuels that achieve net zero emissions is what’s going to power the new 2025 engines.

Two-stroke engines & eco-fuel: F1 aims to be greener than Formula E

As well as the cars, this e-fuel could power the planes that carry the cars and equipment to races, making a big dent in the sport’s carbon footprint.
Research presented at the conference showed that electric racing cars could be responsible for twice the level of carbon emissions as hybrid racing cars, because of the amount produced when building the batteries.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... -formula-e

[Big Tea]

OK, OK, mea culpa.
Let’s not go into discussing climate change, please. Not the place.

It is kind of unavoidable. F1 really dug itself into a hole going the green tour. Going as fast as possible on a stretch of dinosaur gooey will always be net negative. Better do as alpine skying and present digging out half a mountain to have some rich kids have fun in the snow as being in touch with nature.

But to get back to engines. Practically thinking I think the best F1 can do is to go for a V6 hybrid, and homologate that together with Indy. That would benefit the teams the most. McLaren can run both Indy and F1 with one engine, same for Haas. Honda can keep running both as well. We might even see Ferrari back at Indy. Or a Chevy in the back of the Haas F1.

Or open it up so that those who want to do another series can use the same base engine. F2, Lemans, indy etc but must be in a set format for F1, but not number of cylinders limited

[Edax]

OK, OK, mea culpa.
Let’s not go into discussing climate change, please. Not the place.

It is kind of unavoidable. F1 really dug itself into a hole going the green tour. Going as fast as possible on a stretch of dinosaur gooey will always be net negative. Better do as alpine skying and present digging out half a mountain to have some rich kids have fun in the snow as being in touch with nature.

But to get back to engines. Practically thinking I think the best F1 can do is to go for a V6 hybrid, and homologate that together with Indy. That would benefit the teams the most. McLaren can run both Indy and F1 with one engine, same for Haas. Honda can keep running both as well. We might even see Ferrari back at Indy. Or a Chevy in the back of the Haas F1.

Or open it up so that those who want to do another series can use the same base engine. F2, Lemans, indy etc but must be in a set format for F1, but not number of cylinders limited

The reason I thought of Indy was commercially the combination of running Indy and F1 is very attractive because that covers the main markets.

But yeah sharing between 2 or more series makes a lot of sense. It certainly seems to work for WTCC and WRC which share the same engine.

And the testbed function of F1 for engine development has been overblown anyway if you ask me. In the 90’s I worked in a shop who did parts for F1 engines. I can tell you that none of the exotic materials and processes i saw passing by there ever made their way to a commercial vehicle.

Better go for a solution that encourages good competition and ensures a full grid, than trying to pretend to solve the world’s problems.

[Big Tea]

It is kind of unavoidable. F1 really dug itself into a hole going the green tour. Going as fast as possible on a stretch of dinosaur gooey will always be net negative. Better do as alpine skying and present digging out half a mountain to have some rich kids have fun in the snow as being in touch with nature.

But to get back to engines. Practically thinking I think the best F1 can do is to go for a V6 hybrid, and homologate that together with Indy. That would benefit the teams the most. McLaren can run both Indy and F1 with one engine, same for Haas. Honda can keep running both as well. We might even see Ferrari back at Indy. Or a Chevy in the back of the Haas F1.

Or open it up so that those who want to do another series can use the same base engine. F2, Lemans, indy etc but must be in a set format for F1, but not number of cylinders limited

The reason I thought of Indy was commercially the combination of running Indy and F1 is very attractive because that covers the main markets.

But yeah sharing between 2 or more series makes a lot of sense. It certainly seems to work for WTCC and WRC which share the same engine.

And the testbed function of F1 for engine development has been overblown anyway if you ask me. In the 90’s I worked in a shop who did parts for F1 engines. I can tell you that none of the exotic materials and processes i saw passing by there ever made their way to a commercial vehicle.

Better go for a solution that encourages good competition and ensures a full grid, than trying to pretend to solve the world’s problems.

I think it would mean all the series coming together and getting their ducks in a row at the same time.

For instance, F3 a 4 or 6 cyl engine. F2 the same engine but with charging, F1 stick what you like on it and electric machine.
If they get sports, Lemans and a couple of American or Asian series on board wit different options on the same base, the cost would be fractions of what it is now and stil have graduated steps.

Manufactures or privateers could come on board at ant point from a version of the basic n/a engine on up and also opens the door to others coning on board with 'just' the turbo or regen or electric machine or battery set etc.

[nzjrs]

Or open it up so that those who want to do another series can use the same base engine. F2, Lemans, indy etc but must be in a set format for F1, but not number of cylinders limited

The reason I thought of Indy was commercially the combination of running Indy and F1 is very attractive because that covers the main markets.

But yeah sharing between 2 or more series makes a lot of sense. It certainly seems to work for WTCC and WRC which share the same engine.

And the testbed function of F1 for engine development has been overblown anyway if you ask me. In the 90’s I worked in a shop who did parts for F1 engines. I can tell you that none of the exotic materials and processes i saw passing by there ever made their way to a commercial vehicle.

Better go for a solution that encourages good competition and ensures a full grid, than trying to pretend to solve the world’s problems.

I think it would mean all the series coming together and getting their ducks in a row at the same time.

For instance, F3 a 4 or 6 cyl engine. F2 the same engine but with charging, F1 stick what you like on it and electric machine.
If they get sports, Lemans and a couple of American or Asian series on board wit different options on the same base, the cost would be fractions of what it is now and stil have graduated steps.

Manufactures or privateers could come on board at ant point from a version of the basic n/a engine on up and also opens the door to others coning on board with 'just' the turbo or regen or electric machine or battery set etc.

I would be amazed if whoever takes over the Honda F1 engine IP (RedBull?) doesn't think about making it / negotiating so it can be a saleable spec engine for other series.

[NL_Fer]

F1 is on the right path now with e-fuels. They see that batteries are toxic for the environment with there production and heavy reliance on coal and gas to power them let alone the fact you can’t recycle them. E-fuels kills two birds with one stone, it eliminates the mgu-h and allows F1 to have proper sound again and it also actually makes a positive difference to the environment instead of just adding more co2 like the cumbersome batteries.

I think a two stroke engine powered by the latest e-fuels that achieve net zero emissions is what’s going to power the new 2025 engines.

Two-stroke engines & eco-fuel: F1 aims to be greener than Formula E

As well as the cars, this e-fuel could power the planes that carry the cars and equipment to races, making a big dent in the sport’s carbon footprint.
Research presented at the conference showed that electric racing cars could be responsible for twice the level of carbon emissions as hybrid racing cars, because of the amount produced when building the batteries.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... -formula-e

So they will fly a tanker with e-fuel to Bahrain & Abu Dahbi to refuel the planes for the return flight and to fuel the generators for light equipment around the track?

[Big Tea]

F1 is on the right path now with e-fuels. They see that batteries are toxic for the environment with there production and heavy reliance on coal and gas to power them let alone the fact you can’t recycle them. E-fuels kills two birds with one stone, it eliminates the mgu-h and allows F1 to have proper sound again and it also actually makes a positive difference to the environment instead of just adding more co2 like the cumbersome batteries.

I think a two stroke engine powered by the latest e-fuels that achieve net zero emissions is what’s going to power the new 2025 engines.

Two-stroke engines & eco-fuel: F1 aims to be greener than Formula E

As well as the cars, this e-fuel could power the planes that carry the cars and equipment to races, making a big dent in the sport’s carbon footprint.
Research presented at the conference showed that electric racing cars could be responsible for twice the level of carbon emissions as hybrid racing cars, because of the amount produced when building the batteries.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... -formula-e

So they will fly a tanker with e-fuel to Bahrain & Abu Dahbi to refuel the planes for the return flight and to fuel the generators for light equipment around the track?

I think the plan is that everything uses the fuel, not just the cars. If they have the power to get the planes to use it I don't know, but no doubt the trucks will.

[RedNEO]

Yes everything would use the e-fuel. Otherwise it would defeat the object of being ‘net zero emissions’ if you have to fly the e-fuel over from a fossil fuel guzzling plane

[gruntguru]

OK, this is massively off topic, but I am going to ask for a link to that 1C from ICEs if you have it. The heat island effect is well known, but that would suggest that ICEs contribute most of the heat. And (almost) all energy consumption goes eventually to heat, so it would imply that ICEs account for most of the energy consumption in cities...

I'll split this to a new thread if it drags along.

P.S. your degree is probably Fahrenheit, isn't it? Where I come from the degrees are larger. That would explain it.

https://citymonitor.ai/horizons/electri ... cities-865

Electric cars, according to research by scientists from Michigan State University, produce only about one fifth of this heat over the course of an average mile. When you multiply that by the number of cars on the road worldwide, that means an awful lot less heat created on roads.

If what the researchers have found is true, replacing city cars with electric ones could reduce the urban heat island effect pretty dramatically. The researchers used Beijing’s scorching 2012 summer as an example, and found that the use of electric cars could have reduced the temperature across the city by 0.94°C. This would, in turn, have reduced air conditioning usage by 14.44m kilowatt hours, and reduced daily CO2 emissions by 10,686 tonnes.

[nzjrs]

https://citymonitor.ai/horizons/electri ... cities-865

Interesting. I think BigTea (maybe?) talked a bit about the immediate change in urban particulate readings in London boroughs at the start of the lockdowns. I wonder if the pandemic has provided some interesting observational data wrt. UHI and autos.

[RedNEO]

OK, this is massively off topic, but I am going to ask for a link to that 1C from ICEs if you have it. The heat island effect is well known, but that would suggest that ICEs contribute most of the heat. And (almost) all energy consumption goes eventually to heat, so it would imply that ICEs account for most of the energy consumption in cities...

I'll split this to a new thread if it drags along.

P.S. your degree is probably Fahrenheit, isn't it? Where I come from the degrees are larger. That would explain it.

https://citymonitor.ai/horizons/electri ... cities-865

Electric cars, according to research by scientists from Michigan State University, produce only about one fifth of this heat over the course of an average mile. When you multiply that by the number of cars on the road worldwide, that means an awful lot less heat created on roads.

If what the researchers have found is true, replacing city cars with electric ones could reduce the urban heat island effect pretty dramatically. The researchers used Beijing’s scorching 2012 summer as an example, and found that the use of electric cars could have reduced the temperature across the city by 0.94°C. This would, in turn, have reduced air conditioning usage by 14.44m kilowatt hours, and reduced daily CO2 emissions by 10,686 tonnes.

What a useless article. It even says at the beginning that battery powered cars don’t get there electric from carbon free sources most of the time but wants to claim somehow that it’s good for the environment if you ignore that the electric is gotten from dirty sources.