Silly season 2021-2022-2023

[JordanMugen]

At the time he was naïve and seemed to trust totally in the team.
He was also having 'girl trouble', disagreement with his dad, and Nico was the incumbent in the team after a stint with the all time dominant mind man.

I'm not interested in any of this, the driver -- for example -- Russell is plugged into the car to go and drive. It seems straight forward!

Regarding politics, Hamilton is the one who came back to Abu Dhabi while not fully fit, instead of encouraging Russell to drive the car and being pleased for Russell's opportunity.

[El Scorchio]

Bottas has had many races against Lewis where he has outperformed Lewis and races where he completely lost it. This doesn't mean that Russel would be any better than Bottas at challenging Hamilton on a consistent basis, race in, race out, across an entire season. Few have proven to be a match in those terms.

Bottas has comprehensively demonstrated he is less skilled in Formula One than Button or Rosberg -- who are both often viewed as slightly above average journeymen themselves. Bottas has struggled to amass the number of wins in his career, that Button or Rosberg amassed in one season. Why Mercedes persist with such a mediocre second driver as Bottas remains a mystery when the likes of Ricciardo, Alonso and now Russell have been available...

In Bottas defence, he has faced Hamilton as a team mate under very different circumstances than both Button or Rosberg have. Rosberg had the benefit of being in a vastly superior car (relative to next closest competitor), meaning that it was usually finishing 1st or 2nd. Even a bad start would rarely impact that result, except for the 7 points difference. This of course made it easier for Rosberg to compete against Hamilton and even win a championship, although it should not lessen the achievement and consistency that was necessary to do so - for example; Rosberg did manage to compete fairly close in QF which carried over to having a strategic benefit in races that further helped him cement wins.

Bottas did not have this luxury. In both 2017 and 2018, Vettel/Ferrari were leading most of both championships. Also the fact that RedBull was not far behind in races, means that simply starting behind your team-mate further compromized many of his races - either by him being used as a strategic element to secure the best possibly team-result or he fell into traffic or was put on B-strategies. Even in 2019, the Ferrari was a very strong contender further influencing his race results.

2020 the dominance level of the Mercedes was similar to what Rosberg enjoyed, but I'd argue that even here, the RedBull was far closer in race trim, which again, influenced how well Bottas could be competitive. I'd also argue that Hamilton has become a better and fiercer competitor. So it's not exactly "the same benchmark".

In other words; Bottas has had it more difficult than Lewis's former team-mates. Overall, I still think Rosberg was a more fiercer competitor than Bottas is. Maybe not necessarily quicker, but fiercer and that includes the psychological warfare to take Lewis out of his comfort zone. Overall, it's very difficult to compare the two IMO.

Bottas certainly looks weaker mentally, but that could change if he ever got to lead the championship with some significant margin like Rosberg did. He just didn't get that chance and a lot of times, luck has also been a factor (the puncture i.e. in Baku).

Great indication being Sochi where Rosberg destroyed his tyres on lap 1, came in for hards and still drove through the field to finish second. That's how much better the car was then. Granted the tyre deg- or lack of- helped, but still he was able to finish SEVENTEEN seconds ahead of third place.

Also worth noting, mentioning third place, that was a certain Mr Bottas in that race and he also set the fastest lap....

[Jolle]

At the time he was naïve and seemed to trust totally in the team.
He was also having 'girl trouble', disagreement with his dad, and Nico was the incumbent in the team after a stint with the all time dominant mind man.

I'm not interested in any of this, the driver -- for example -- Russell is plugged into the car to go and drive. It seems straight forward!

Regarding politics, Hamilton is the one who came back to Abu Dhabi while not fully fit, instead of encouraging Russell to drive the car and being pleased for Russell's opportunity.

Can’t do no good right? You could also say he was a good professional. He’s paid millions per year to race, so when he could be in the car he is.

[aMessageToCharlie]

Bottas has comprehensively demonstrated he is less skilled in Formula One than Button or Rosberg -- who are both often viewed as slightly above average journeymen themselves. Bottas has struggled to amass the number of wins in his career, that Button or Rosberg amassed in one season. Why Mercedes persist with such a mediocre second driver as Bottas remains a mystery when the likes of Ricciardo, Alonso and now Russell have been available...

In Bottas defence, he has faced Hamilton as a team mate under very different circumstances than both Button or Rosberg have. Rosberg had the benefit of being in a vastly superior car (relative to next closest competitor), meaning that it was usually finishing 1st or 2nd. Even a bad start would rarely impact that result, except for the 7 points difference. This of course made it easier for Rosberg to compete against Hamilton and even win a championship, although it should not lessen the achievement and consistency that was necessary to do so - for example; Rosberg did manage to compete fairly close in QF which carried over to having a strategic benefit in races that further helped him cement wins.

Bottas did not have this luxury. In both 2017 and 2018, Vettel/Ferrari were leading most of both championships. Also the fact that RedBull was not far behind in races, means that simply starting behind your team-mate further compromized many of his races - either by him being used as a strategic element to secure the best possibly team-result or he fell into traffic or was put on B-strategies. Even in 2019, the Ferrari was a very strong contender further influencing his race results.

2020 the dominance level of the Mercedes was similar to what Rosberg enjoyed, but I'd argue that even here, the RedBull was far closer in race trim, which again, influenced how well Bottas could be competitive. I'd also argue that Hamilton has become a better and fiercer competitor. So it's not exactly "the same benchmark".

In other words; Bottas has had it more difficult than Lewis's former team-mates. Overall, I still think Rosberg was a more fiercer competitor than Bottas is. Maybe not necessarily quicker, but fiercer and that includes the psychological warfare to take Lewis out of his comfort zone. Overall, it's very difficult to compare the two IMO.

Bottas certainly looks weaker mentally, but that could change if he ever got to lead the championship with some significant margin like Rosberg did. He just didn't get that chance and a lot of times, luck has also been a factor (the puncture i.e. in Baku).

Great indication being Sochi where Rosberg destroyed his tyres on lap 1, came in for hards and still drove through the field to finish second. That's how much better the car was then. Granted the tyre deg- or lack of- helped, but still he was able to finish SEVENTEEN seconds ahead of third place.

Also worth noting, mentioning third place, that was a certain Mr Bottas in that race and he also set the fastest lap....

The cars bottas drove were just as dominant.

2018 British GP - Hamilton P18 to P2

2019 Abu Dhabi GP - Bottas P20 to P4

[NathanOlder]

The cars bottas drove were just as dominant.

2018 British GP - Hamilton P18 to P2

2019 Abu Dhabi GP - Bottas P20 to P4

Absolutely not. Rosberg had 3 years in a WCC car and all 3 years (100%) they smashed the rest.
Bottas has had 4yrs in a WCC and 50% of those they smashed the rest.

100% > 50%

[aMessageToCharlie]

The cars bottas drove were just as dominant.

2018 British GP - Hamilton P18 to P2

2019 Abu Dhabi GP - Bottas P20 to P4

Absolutely not. Rosberg had 3 years in a WCC car and all 3 years (100%) they smashed the rest.
Bottas has had 4yrs in a WCC and 50% of those they smashed the rest.

100% > 50%

2017 WCC & WDC: Mercedes
2018 WCC & WDC: Mercedes
2019 WCC & WDC: Mercedes
2020 WCC & WDC: Mercedes

4/4 = 100%

[Scorpaguy]

I just do not think Bot has the killer instinct...aggressive overtakes are just not his forte. I believe his stats from last year point to him being an average driver (albeit in a field of elite drivers). Such is often taken as a swipe at Ham...but should not be (a soon to be 8X should need no defense against such silliness).

In the best car, Ham had an average finish of 1.875...in the same car Bot had an average finish of 5.294. Bot is not WDC material...but is capable of wielding a William's or Haas to the odd respectable finish.

That stat is a really dumb way of supposedly working out how good a driver is. Just for the record, it makes Perez (7.4) in a Racing Point a better driver than Verstappen (7.5 avg) in a Red Bull.

I would aver the methodology has merits for analyzing intra-team performance. Certainly not inclusive of all the parameters...but telling nonetheless of how drivers in equal equipment deliver their wares. Including the DNFs en mass is likely flawed (or "dumb" as you state), but the math amongst the teams seems a bit telling...IMHO (Max 7.1 vs Alb 8.1, Perez 6.7 vs Str 9.8, etc.)

...and for the record, I have no desire to belittle Bot, he is an elite driver, but does not seem to be one capable of consistently finishing directly behind a "more elite" driver even when using the same equipment. In 16 head to head battles, Bot won 4, Ham 12. Of the 12 that Ham bested Bot, Bot managed to finish directly behind Ham 50% of the time. When Bot did not finish directly adrift of Ham, he was an average of 8.8 positions behind (or 6.5 when not including Bot's sole DNF). Just ramblings.

[NathanOlder]

The cars bottas drove were just as dominant.

2018 British GP - Hamilton P18 to P2

2019 Abu Dhabi GP - Bottas P20 to P4

Absolutely not. Rosberg had 3 years in a WCC car and all 3 years (100%) they smashed the rest.
Bottas has had 4yrs in a WCC and 50% of those they smashed the rest.

100% > 50%

2017 WCC & WDC: Mercedes
2018 WCC & WDC: Mercedes
2019 WCC & WDC: Mercedes
2020 WCC & WDC: Mercedes

4/4 = 100%

Were talking about dominant cars , not just a WCC winner.

Lets look at some stats to back up my side of this debate
The gap between 2nd and 1st in the WCC

Rosberg era
2014 Merc scored 73% more than 2nd place
2015 Merc scored 64% more than 2nd place
2016 Merc scored 63% more than 2nd place
average 67%

Bottas era
2017 Merc scored 27% more than 2nd place
2018 Merc scored 14% more than 2nd place
2019 Merc scored 46% more than 2nd place
2020 Merc scored 79% more than 2nd place
average 42%

Now please explain how Bottas car was just as dominant as Rosbergs ?! Thats a huge difference. So I think you are wrong on your claim.

[aMessageToCharlie]

Absolutely not. Rosberg had 3 years in a WCC car and all 3 years (100%) they smashed the rest.
Bottas has had 4yrs in a WCC and 50% of those they smashed the rest.

100% > 50%

2017 WCC & WDC: Mercedes
2018 WCC & WDC: Mercedes
2019 WCC & WDC: Mercedes
2020 WCC & WDC: Mercedes

4/4 = 100%

Were talking about dominant cars , not just a WCC winner.

Lets look at some stats to back up my side of this debate
The gap between 2nd and 1st in the WCC

Rosberg era
2014 Merc scored 73% more than 2nd place
2015 Merc scored 64% more than 2nd place
2016 Merc scored 63% more than 2nd place
average 67%

Bottas era
2017 Merc scored 27% more than 2nd place
2018 Merc scored 14% more than 2nd place
2019 Merc scored 46% more than 2nd place
2020 Merc scored 79% more than 2nd place
average 42%

Now please explain how Bottas car was just as dominant as Rosbergs ?! Thats a huge difference. So I think you are wrong on your claim.

The numbers you chose (how much more points did Mercedes bag compared to the second best team) are highly dependent on the two driver's performance. The flaw is in your assumption that Bottas was performing on Rosberg's level, which hasnt been the case.

So let's look a bit deeper and maybe it even helps in understanding the criticism re. Bottas a little better.

Year: Points total, percentage of max. points available (number of races x 25pts)

Rosberg:
2014: 317pts, 67%
2015: 322pts, 68%
2016: 385pts, 73%
Average: 69%

Bottas:
2017: 305pts, 61%
2018: 247pts, 47%
2019: 326pts, 62%
2020: 223pts, 52%
Average: 55%

So if the Mercedes from 2017 onwards was so much worse compared to the competition, we should also see a big drop in Hamilton's percentages, right?

Hamilton:
2014: 384pts, 80%
2015: 381pts, 80%
2016: 380pts, 72%
Average: 77%

2017: 363pts, 73%
2018: 408pts, 77%
2019: 413pts, 79%
2020: 347pts, 81%
Average: 77%

Hamilton's numbers show, that he brought in exactly the same percentage of max. available points in the "Rosberg era" 2014 to 2016, as compared to the "Bottas era" 2017 to 2020.

So yes, Mercedes did score less points from 2017-2020. But the car was more than capeable, (in fact exactly the same as 2014-2016) as Hamilton's results show. It's just that their number two driver didnt perform, which is exactly why he's being criticised and why people point out that he is no yard stick to measure a driver's achievements against.

[NathanOlder]

2017 WCC & WDC: Mercedes
2018 WCC & WDC: Mercedes
2019 WCC & WDC: Mercedes
2020 WCC & WDC: Mercedes

4/4 = 100%

Were talking about dominant cars , not just a WCC winner.

Lets look at some stats to back up my side of this debate
The gap between 2nd and 1st in the WCC

Rosberg era
2014 Merc scored 73% more than 2nd place
2015 Merc scored 64% more than 2nd place
2016 Merc scored 63% more than 2nd place
average 67%

Bottas era
2017 Merc scored 27% more than 2nd place
2018 Merc scored 14% more than 2nd place
2019 Merc scored 46% more than 2nd place
2020 Merc scored 79% more than 2nd place
average 42%

Now please explain how Bottas car was just as dominant as Rosbergs ?! Thats a huge difference. So I think you are wrong on your claim.

The numbers you chose (how much more points did Mercedes bag compared to the second best team) are highly dependent on the two driver's performance. The flaw is in your assumption that Bottas was performing on Rosberg's level, which hasnt been the case.

So let's look a bit deeper and maybe it even helps in understanding the criticism re. Bottas a little better.

Year: Points total, percentage of max. points available (number of races x 25pts)

Rosberg:
2014: 317pts, 67%
2015: 322pts, 68%
2016: 385pts, 73%
Average: 69%

Bottas:
2017: 305pts, 61%
2018: 247pts, 47%
2019: 326pts, 62%
2020: 223pts, 52%
Average: 55%

So if the Mercedes from 2017 onwards was so much worse compared to the competition, we should also see a big drop in Hamilton's percentages, right?

Hamilton:
2014: 384pts, 80%
2015: 381pts, 80%
2016: 380pts, 72%
Average: 77%

2017: 363pts, 73%
2018: 408pts, 77%
2019: 413pts, 79%
2020: 347pts, 81%
Average: 77%

Hamilton's numbers show, that he brought in exactly the same percentage of max. available points in the "Rosberg era" 2014 to 2016, as compared to the "Bottas era" 2017 to 2020.

So yes, Mercedes did score less points from 2017-2020. But the car was more than capeable, (in fact exactly the same as 2014-2016) as Hamilton's results show. It's just that their number two driver didnt perform, which is exactly why he's being criticised and why people point out that he is no yard stick to measure a driver's achievements against.

2 things to crush your hopes in dismissing Bottas

1. Hamilton has certainly improved as a driver since Rosberg has left, therfore maximising his points in recent years.
2. Even if Hamilton had remained the same level (which he hasnt as he has clearly improved although you probably wont agree with that either) Then other drivers have been much closer to him in the WDC in the Bottas era as opposed to the Rosberg era.
Only twice has the gap between the top Merc driver and the other team drivers been under 100 points. 2017 it was as low as 46pts and 2018 it was 88 pts. So your telling me Hamilton had a car as dominant as 2014-2016 and only beat Vettel by 46pts! thats hilarious.

Another thing to consider is, 2019 and 2020, The gap between Hamilton and the next best driver from another team was very similar to the 2014-16 years, So those cars could be said as equally dominant (as I said at the very start) In that time, 2014-16 the 2nd place team were 67% behind in points with Lewis and Nico. The last 2 years the gap has been 63% with Lewis and Bottas.
The average gap between the top Merc driver and top other driver only saw a tiny 8pt difference between the 2 periods (14-16 & 19-20) So the car experienced and equal dominant spell, and the gap between the top 2 teams were very similar too average of 67% and 62%. This means in the last 2 years, Bottas has performed as well as Rosberg did you cant have it both ways because of your bitter feelings towards a Mercedes driver or 2.

[basti313]

Well, this is really difficult to read from the numbers. Especially in 2018 or 2019 we saw many things like strategy errors, DNFs and Vettel falling apart, that spoil the numbers in any way. Very difficult to interpret. I have a feeling that there were more team errors especially in 2018 and 2019, that hide a bit the dominance.

Looking back, Rosberg was mostly in the range of Hamilton. Mercedes using Bottas because he is so slow as a road block like in Monza 2018 against Rai is something that I do not think would have been possible in the Rosberg time.

[JordanMugen]

Rosberg:
Average: 69%

Bottas:
Average: 55%

Hamilton:
2014-2016:
Average: 77%

2017-2020:
Average: 77%


So yes, Mercedes did score less points from 2017-2020. But the car was more than capeable, (in fact exactly the same as 2014-2016) as Hamilton's results show. It's just that their number two driver didnt perform, which is exactly why he's being criticised and why people point out that he is no yard stick to measure a driver's achievements against.

That's an excellent analysis aMessageToCharlie and clearly shows Bottas performing worse than Rosberg.

It will remain a mystery why Mercedes for 2019-2021 did not acquire the signature of the out-of-contract Ricciardo or out-of-contract Alonso in place of Bottas. They are drivers who were far more likely to not be worse than Rosberg IMO. It is clear as day this is costing Mercedes WCC points, albeit not a WCC position.

Fans are worried greatly when Mr. Wolff uses names like "wingman", instead of following the rational procedure of obtaining the best two drivers possible in order to maximise WCC points. Still to this day, Wolff renewed Bottas inexplicably for 2021, instead of buying out Russell's contract so Russell could have a go and thereby increase Mercedes' WCC points haul in 2021.

Gasly and Albon cost Red Bull a lot of WCC points compared to Ricciardo for that matter.

[Just_a_fan]

It is clear as day this is costing Mercedes WCC points, albeit not a WCC position.

There you go. That's why. They win both titles so it's "job done" for the team. Sure, people who don't like Hamilton/Hamilton's dominance don't like it, but that's not the team's problem really. They are there to secure the WCC and the WDC and they have done so every year for the last 7 years. Why would they change that formula when it works so well for them?

[dans79]

Why would they change that formula when it works so well for them?

Because it makes some people so mad........

[aMessageToCharlie]

Were talking about dominant cars , not just a WCC winner.

Lets look at some stats to back up my side of this debate
The gap between 2nd and 1st in the WCC

Rosberg era
2014 Merc scored 73% more than 2nd place
2015 Merc scored 64% more than 2nd place
2016 Merc scored 63% more than 2nd place
average 67%

Bottas era
2017 Merc scored 27% more than 2nd place
2018 Merc scored 14% more than 2nd place
2019 Merc scored 46% more than 2nd place
2020 Merc scored 79% more than 2nd place
average 42%

Now please explain how Bottas car was just as dominant as Rosbergs ?! Thats a huge difference. So I think you are wrong on your claim.

The numbers you chose (how much more points did Mercedes bag compared to the second best team) are highly dependent on the two driver's performance. The flaw is in your assumption that Bottas was performing on Rosberg's level, which hasnt been the case.

So let's look a bit deeper and maybe it even helps in understanding the criticism re. Bottas a little better.

Year: Points total, percentage of max. points available (number of races x 25pts)

Rosberg:
2014: 317pts, 67%
2015: 322pts, 68%
2016: 385pts, 73%
Average: 69%

Bottas:
2017: 305pts, 61%
2018: 247pts, 47%
2019: 326pts, 62%
2020: 223pts, 52%
Average: 55%

So if the Mercedes from 2017 onwards was so much worse compared to the competition, we should also see a big drop in Hamilton's percentages, right?

Hamilton:
2014: 384pts, 80%
2015: 381pts, 80%
2016: 380pts, 72%
Average: 77%

2017: 363pts, 73%
2018: 408pts, 77%
2019: 413pts, 79%
2020: 347pts, 81%
Average: 77%

Hamilton's numbers show, that he brought in exactly the same percentage of max. available points in the "Rosberg era" 2014 to 2016, as compared to the "Bottas era" 2017 to 2020.

So yes, Mercedes did score less points from 2017-2020. But the car was more than capeable, (in fact exactly the same as 2014-2016) as Hamilton's results show. It's just that their number two driver didnt perform, which is exactly why he's being criticised and why people point out that he is no yard stick to measure a driver's achievements against.

2 things to crush your hopes in dismissing Bottas

1. Hamilton has certainly improved as a driver since Rosberg has left, therfore maximising his points in recent years.
2. Even if Hamilton had remained the same level (which he hasnt as he has clearly improved although you probably wont agree with that either) Then other drivers have been much closer to him in the WDC in the Bottas era as opposed to the Rosberg era.
Only twice has the gap between the top Merc driver and the other team drivers been under 100 points. 2017 it was as low as 46pts and 2018 it was 88 pts. So your telling me Hamilton had a car as dominant as 2014-2016 and only beat Vettel by 46pts! thats hilarious.

Another thing to consider is, 2019 and 2020, The gap between Hamilton and the next best driver from another team was very similar to the 2014-16 years, So those cars could be said as equally dominant (as I said at the very start) In that time, 2014-16 the 2nd place team were 67% behind in points with Lewis and Nico. The last 2 years the gap has been 63% with Lewis and Bottas.
The average gap between the top Merc driver and top other driver only saw a tiny 8pt difference between the 2 periods (14-16 & 19-20) So the car experienced and equal dominant spell, and the gap between the top 2 teams were very similar too average of 67% and 62%. This means in the last 2 years, Bottas has performed as well as Rosberg did you cant have it both ways because of your bitter feelings towards a Mercedes driver or 2.

Let's try and not turn this into an emotional "my driver is better than yours" discussion again. I don't have any "bitter feelings" towards anyone, so I'd appreciate you staying rational.

I will not respond to your first point as there is no way for either of us to objectively measure if or by how much Hamilton improved his skills/mindset or whatever.

So the 2017 and 2018 Ferraris were closer in performance to the Merc than in the years before and after. Yes, obviously. We were however comparing periods (2014-2016 vs. 2017-2020) because that is the data we have available for the Ros/Bot comparison. You can of course pick specific years or even races for a selective view but that doesnt change the facts.

The 2017 and 2018 Mercedes was still more than capeable to get points and wins as shown not only by the wdc and wcc trophies, but also by the number one driver, who bought in the exact same percentage of available points in 2017 as in 2016 (73%), won 9 races vs. Bottas 3 and became wdc.

Same in 2018. 11 wins for Hamilton, wdc and bagged 77% of the available points which is on par with 2019 (79%).

And Bottas?

0 wins, bagged only 47% of available points and came in 5th!!! in the wdc.


Next up: 2019 & 2020
Firstly I'm glad we're on the same page regarding the dominance of these Mercedes cars.

Indeed the numbers looks quite similar on first glance, but again the devil is in the detail.

1.
2019 was Bottas' best year. He finished "only" 87 points behind his team mate and won 4 GPs. Honestly, if he was performing on that level no one would/could complain really for a number two driver. But he isnt.

And that is exactly the same issue Red Bull has had in 2019 and 2020 and why they axed Albon.

2.
Red Bull came in 2nd in the wcc in 2020 with 319 points compared to Mercedes' 573. And it would have been much closer if they didnt have their own "Bottas" in the no2 car.

Max came in just 9 points short of the dominant 2020 Mercedes (as we agreed on) in the hands of Bottas. Albon came in 7th!! 109 points adrift of his team mate which obviously shifts the numbers.

2019 is a similar story with Verstappen coming in 3rd in the wdc with 278 points (only 48 points behind Bottas in the dominant Merc) vs Albon in 8th!! with only 92 points.

That is why Red Bull replaced Albon and that is why people criticise Bottas. And calling them bitter or haters isnt helping your argument.