2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[Zynerji]

Not to mention the intercooler.......

Isn't the F2 engine a hot V?

They are, but the setup of a F2 system is so much simpler because it's a spec series. No need to be efficient, just needs to be cheap.

So, it makes no sense, but in F2 it does?

I'm confused by the statement's contradictory nature.

[Jolle]

Isn't the F2 engine a hot V?

They are, but the setup of a F2 system is so much simpler because it's a spec series. No need to be efficient, just needs to be cheap.

So, it makes no sense, but in F2 it does?

I'm confused by the statement's contradictory nature.

F2 has no H unit, variable intakes, etc etc. The few % powerloss because of the packaging doesn’t matter.

[Zynerji]

And if that loss was the same for everyone in F1, why wouldn't it work again?

[lucafo]

I would go to electrify the front axle and keep the back as it is.
It would give more stored energy.
Who cares for braking skills? We dont use it nowadays.

[Zynerji]

I would go to electrify the front axle and keep the back as it is.
It would give more stored energy.
Who cares for braking skills? We dont use it nowadays.

I'm down with AWD KERS. Maybe also spec something like 10000cc (car battery size) of each sidepod volume for batteries as well. Can crash- structure around them.

[JordanMugen]

NA efficiency will be improved with recovery turbines in the exhaust system
mechanically connected to the ICE (or electrically connected to allow either real-time mode or energy storage mode)

But then the NA power units will be quiet, which defeats the point of a NA power unit doesn't it?

[JordanMugen]

So, it makes no sense, but in F2 it does?

Formula 2 should never changed from the V8. Going to the V6 turbo, served no purpose when the trusty 4L Mechachrome V8 could have soldiered on in the new-generation chassis...

I just don't agree with everything getting turbocharged. The most-hyped latest release sportscars, like the 2020 Porsche 718 Boxster GTS 4.0, are the ones which do not have a turbocharged engine -- by comparison the 2.5 turbo version, the 2020 718 Boxster S, gains little to no affection from automotive enthusiasts.

It revs. It's naturally aspirated. It's medicine for the soul.

- Savagegeese auto reviews

Not a single concern given to:

1) Environmental sustainability and social and automotive relevance

So perhaps FOM have laid out the wrong goals entirely, and emotion should be the number one priority?

If a compact, entry-level, basic Porsche can have a 4.0 litre engine, why should a Formula One car -- the finest single-seat circuit racing car in the world -- have a tiny 1.0L V4!? Why not the 3.2 V12?

3) Creating a powerful and emotive power unit

While all signs point to a 1.05L V4 turbo with an extensive electric system (and the Porsche 919 demonstrates that would "ok"), going the other way and adding 6-cylinders instead of removing two would do so much more to celebrate the glory and emotion of a reciprocating piston combustion engine.

[Cold Fussion]

Have you considered that perhaps the reason a few of Porsche's low volume sports cars have a NA might be facilitated by every single one of their high volume cars being a turbo, a hybrid or an EV?

[gruntguru]

NA efficiency also will like hybrid turbo F1 benefit from 'jet-induced' very lean running aka heat dilution

For comparable power, rpm and dilution, engine capacity would need to triple - so about 5 litre?

[JordanMugen]

Have you considered that perhaps the reason a few of Porsche's low volume sports cars have a NA might be facilitated by every single one of their high volume cars being a turbo, a hybrid or an EV?

If so, Porsche still get to cash in on the hype and come out on top of the sportscar industry, as the most hyped and desirable sportscar. Whereas Honda NSX -- the sensible turbocharged hybrid -- sits on dealer lots, as almost nobody wants to actually buy a turbocharged hybrid sportscar. (The Audi R8 5.0 V10 rear drive model with no hybrid electric system *at all*, seems better regarded despite technical inferiority to the NSX. Same goes for the hybrid electric Polestar P1 sportscar also being received poorly compared to its rivals. Perhaps people who are old enough and/or rich enough to buy these sportscars just don't care that much about minimising their emissions? )

The EU WLTP fleet limits of 95 g CO2/km in 2021 are certainly very restrictive, yet whether that will make any difference to global warming remains unclear when other countries like Brazil have no such restrictions on the emissions produced by new autos...

Some Australians think it is simply unfair to Irish motorists to have to pay $1200 AUD annual road tax and $1.50 AUD per litre fuel excise & carbon tax to run a base model Hyundai i30 Active 2.0 which produces 171 g CO2/km, while we pay $0 annual road tax and $0.49 AUD per litre fuel excise and no carbon tax.

Why are the Irish motorists being made to carry the burden of the environment, while the typical Australian doesn't particularly care about minimising the environmental impact of their personal motor vehicle? The 2 tonne Toyota Hilux is the number one selling vehicle here and NOT a 1L Renault Clio, and the driver of the 2.0 litre i30 here probably thinks (mistakenly) that it is environmentally friendly because it is a 4-cylinder base model Hyundai (of course in some ways it's old fashioned port-injected power unit is better, as it produces lower particulate emissions than a modern direct-injected one)...

The question has to be why do the EU WLTP rules, the fuel excise, the annual CO2 road tax etc all have it in for naturally aspirated engines, while other countries do not tax or target these things to that degree at all. Why should European motorists be the one to carry the burden, while Bruce Joyce in Australia happily drives his 6.2L V8 Holden (paying $0 road tax, as opposed to the $3200 AUD road tax it would attract in Ireland)!?

Bruce Joyce is not in any way disincentivised from driving a Holden Commodore SS-V unit that produces nearly 300 g CO2/km while Jenna Fitzpatrick is so, so heavily disincentivsed from driving the identical Vauxhaull VXR8 in Ireland.

Is it fair for Fitzpatrick to be targeted while Joyce can pollute merrily, despite the emissions going into the atmosphere of the same planet...?

It's not like Australian fuel excise is even the cheapest, it's about on par with California, while most other US states have far, far, lower fuel excise than California!

[JordanMugen]

Have you considered that perhaps the reason a few of Porsche's low volume sports cars have a NA might be facilitated by every single one of their high volume cars being a turbo, a hybrid or an EV?

Besides, by the same token since there are only twenty Formula One cars what does it matter if they are naturally aspirated and highly desirable?

There seems to be a BIG disconnect between the EU WLTP regulations and what people actually want to buy in ICEs (granted zero emission Teslas are very popular):

In the U.S., sales of the Boxster model dropped from a recent high of 4,632 cars in 2013 [for the flat-six] to 2,097 cars in 2018 [for the flat-four turbo]

https://jalopnik.com/the-four-cylinder- ... 1841891548

Reinstating the flat-six could be seen as a measure that simply had to be done to rescue the collapsed sales volume of the Porsche Boxster. I already mentioned the poor sales volume of the other downsized turbo sportscars, the Honda NSX and Polestar P1.

It makes me sad that Irish blogger Stavros had to sell his old Civic Type R due to the 770 EUR road tax on the 220g CO2/km output and replace it with a turbo-diesel version simply because it attracts low tax (of course being a Honda, it's a well-engineered turbo-diesel which is smooth and not clattery, but it's still dreadful or curious that this is forced by Government policy). Here in Australia, there is no road tax here to incentive use of vehicles that emit low CO2 /km -- it becomes a personal decision, and Bruce Joyce may give little thought to the CO2 output of his 2015 6.2L V8 Commodore nor Abdul Faritini to his 2015 3.5L V6 Toyota Camry -- the Camry is just an average family car which is not sporty in any way, yet it spews out 215 g CO2/km for that matter!

[Cold Fussion]

Besides, by the same token since there are only twenty Formula One cars what does it matter if they are naturally aspirated and highly desirable?

Obviously the notion that F1 cars have any significant impact on the environment is ludicrous, and perhaps even their impact relative to the entire impact of the F1 circus is also negligible. The problem is F1 has so many different stake holders and so many different parties with competing interests means that any regulation set going to be a compromise. Even if F1 were able to ignore all of that and only focus on delivering the most enjoyable product it can make, that itself is a compromise because there are many different types of F1 fans. There are a lot of fans who only care about drivers racing, there are some where the technology and engineering are what drives the interest (I suspect a lot of people in this forum section) and there are some where the visceral experience of the race is the most important. Everything is a compromise and can't be perfect for everyone.

There is also no question that Australia's environmental impact is entirely disproportionate, but it doesn't mean the rest of the world should follow its appalling example.

[JordanMugen]

There is also no question that Australia's environmental impact is entirely disproportionate, but it doesn't mean the rest of the world should follow its appalling example.

This is our Prime Minister, Scott Morrison, he loves coal!


Here in South Australia, we generate about 90% of our electricity from renewable wind and solar, which is pretty good I think. So EV drivers can be safe in the knowledge their batteries were mostly charged without emissions. It does put a lot of pressure on the old gas-fired stations that make the other ~10% which were not originally designed to be used as "on-demand" services to top-up and balance the grid though. Apparently we would need a battery 1000x the size of the Tesla one we have, were it to be sufficient to store enough to be used to balance the grid.

[Jolle]

There is also no question that Australia's environmental impact is entirely disproportionate, but it doesn't mean the rest of the world should follow its appalling example.

This is our Prime Minister, Scott Morrison, he loves coal!
https://larutadelclima.org/wp-content/u ... orison.jpg

Here in South Australia, we generate about 90% of our electricity from renewable wind and solar, which is pretty good I think. So EV drivers can be safe in the knowledge their batteries were mostly charged without emissions. It does put a lot of pressure on the old gas-fired stations that make the other ~10% which were not originally designed to be used as "on-demand" services to top-up and balance the grid though. Apparently we would need a battery 1000x the size of the Tesla one we have, were it to be sufficient to store enough to be used to balance the grid.

So, with a 1000's of tesla's plugged in the grid at any point or with/and home batteries you can balance the grid?

[mclaren111]

GP Blog:

Because F1 cannot rely on 'old' engines forever, it has been decided to introduce the new engines in 2025 instead of 2026. This is the first time Liberty Media can do something about the engines. There was always talk about the sound and the cost, but there are now more points in the list of the F1 Commission

Engine for 2025

- Sustainability and social relevance for the car industry

- Switching to fully sustainable fuels

- A powerful engine that also evokes emotion from the fans

- A significant cost reduction

- Must be attractive to new manufacturers

Seems that the Fans are being listened to - at last...