2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[JordanMugen]

So, with a 1000's of tesla's plugged in the grid at any point or with/and home batteries you can balance the grid?

This kind of Tesla battery:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-02/ ... s/12622382

So at 1000 times that size, the scale of battery required to stabilise a solar/wind-based power grid properly (and eliminate the gas-fired power plants from the loop) to create a 100% renewable electricity system, is an imposing task.

A 50 per cent expansion of the world's largest lithium-ion battery in South Australia is now fully operational, increasing its potential output by 50 megawatts. After weeks of testing, the Tesla battery at Hornsdale, near Jamestown in the state's mid-north, is now capable of delivering 150 megawatts, or 189 megawatt hours.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-02/ ... s/12622382

So instead of 189 MWh, it would need 189 GWh to be sufficient for grid balancing in the small low-population state of South Australia, i.e., a battery the equal of 2.52 million Tesla Model 3 Long Range road cars.

[jjn9128]

GP Blog:

Because F1 cannot rely on 'old' engines forever, it has been decided to introduce the new engines in 2025 instead of 2026. This is the first time Liberty Media can do something about the engines. There was always talk about the sound and the cost, but there are now more points in the list of the F1 Commission

Engine for 2025

- Sustainability and social relevance for the car industry

- Switching to fully sustainable fuels

- A powerful engine that also evokes emotion from the fans

- A significant cost reduction

- Must be attractive to new manufacturers

Seems that the Fans are being listened to - at last...

I'll believe it when I see it. I can't see any positive reaction to the sprint race idea but apparently it has support from fans.

[RedNEO]

GP Blog:

Because F1 cannot rely on 'old' engines forever, it has been decided to introduce the new engines in 2025 instead of 2026. This is the first time Liberty Media can do something about the engines. There was always talk about the sound and the cost, but there are now more points in the list of the F1 Commission

Engine for 2025

- Sustainability and social relevance for the car industry

- Switching to fully sustainable fuels

- A powerful engine that also evokes emotion from the fans

- A significant cost reduction

- Must be attractive to new manufacturers

Seems that the Fans are being listened to - at last...

As they should be, it sounds all very much like no mgu-h which is good for that emotion.

[Ozan]

2.0 litre v6 + turbo would please my ears, no mgu-h or anything like that please.

[NL_Fer]

Remove the MGU-H would make the ERS less usefull. 75% less deployment, but still carry the same weight of the motor, battery, electronics, etc.

AWD Kers would add even more weight, still have only 50% deployment and brake like a sportscar.

So it would sound better for us, but drive worse for the drivers. Also I suspect the current three (Mercedes/Ferrari/Renault) would prefer to keep turbocharged/mgu-h technology. Make use of their advantage over any new manufacturers.

[Jolle]

So, with a 1000's of tesla's plugged in the grid at any point or with/and home batteries you can balance the grid?

This kind of Tesla battery:
https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/103264 ... ge.jpg?v=2
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-02/ ... s/12622382

So at 1000 times that size, the scale of battery required to stabilise a solar/wind-based power grid properly (and eliminate the gas-fired power plants from the loop) to create a 100% renewable electricity system, is an imposing task.

A 50 per cent expansion of the world's largest lithium-ion battery in South Australia is now fully operational, increasing its potential output by 50 megawatts. After weeks of testing, the Tesla battery at Hornsdale, near Jamestown in the state's mid-north, is now capable of delivering 150 megawatts, or 189 megawatt hours.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-02/ ... s/12622382

So instead of 189 MWh, it would need 189 GWh to be sufficient for grid balancing in the small low-population state of South Australia, i.e., a battery the equal of 2.52 million Tesla Model 3 Long Range road cars.

One of the systems they are working on is that EV’s plugged into the grid can be used as a buffer. This is one of the examples of a real smart grid and will reduce costs even more for end users.

[Zynerji]

Using MY car as a buffer?

Not unless you pay me.

[nzjrs]

Using MY car as a buffer?

Not unless you pay me.

That's actually a good point. Is there an arbitrage opportunity there?

[Jolle]

Using MY car as a buffer?

Not unless you pay me.

The idea is that the biggest bit of the buffer isn’t that you use the energy from your car (but in theory you could, reducing your electric bill at home) but more that your EV charges more when there is a surplus in electric power. Making it much cheaper to fill up your car.

[Zynerji]

Using MY car as a buffer?

Not unless you pay me.

The idea is that the biggest bit of the buffer isn’t that you use the energy from your car (but in theory you could, reducing your electric bill at home) but more that your EV charges more when there is a surplus in electric power. Making it much cheaper to fill up your car.

I bought a house a few years ago that had a control panel that would read the demand, and would try to schedule things like laundry at the cheapest times of day.

Unfortunately, I just removed it, as I had zero interest in doing laundry at 3:30am.

And when you say using EV as a "buffer", that sounds like it's being used as a tool for someone else's benefit. You can goto jail for stealing gasoline from a car currently. I'd never buy an EV if the grid can choose to steal my battery charge (instead of putting a charge in) when I leave it plugged in.

[toraabe]

Modern f1 engines will never sound like before 2005....
Anyway best ever sounding racecar

[Jolle]

Using MY car as a buffer?

Not unless you pay me.

The idea is that the biggest bit of the buffer isn’t that you use the energy from your car (but in theory you could, reducing your electric bill at home) but more that your EV charges more when there is a surplus in electric power. Making it much cheaper to fill up your car.

I bought a house a few years ago that had a control panel that would read the demand, and would try to schedule things like laundry at the cheapest times of day.

Unfortunately, I just removed it, as I had zero interest in doing laundry at 3:30am.

And when you say using EV as a "buffer", that sounds like it's being used as a tool for someone else's benefit. You can goto jail for stealing gasoline from a car currently. I'd never buy an EV if the grid can choose to steal my battery charge (instead of putting a charge in) when I leave it plugged in.

I guess it’s not done like that. You would get a much reduced tariff when you plug into the grid. One option I read is a more micro solution, where a household could be its own hub. So you could make your own power with panels, in addition to the grid. Your EV would help to, for instance run your own washing during the day and charge during almost free hours during the night.

[JordanMugen]

2.0 litre v6 + turbo would please my ears, no mgu-h or anything like that please.

Why not a 2.0 litre V8? ChampCars always sounded very pleasant, albeit quiet compared to F1.

Edit -- 2.1L [2.13L to precise] from adding two cylinders to the current engines, it's already a 90-degree motor better suited to a V8 than a V6. So that would be going the opposite way, adding two cylinders to make a V8 instead of subtracting two to make the rumoured 1L [1.06L] V4.

Then it would sound 'more emotive' even without needing to rev higher or do anything else.

[mzso]

https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads ... 2048,1024

Car companies are also abandoning hydrogen power cars. It's inefficient and costly compared to battery power.

Thanks for this. I can now link this instead of trying to convince hydrogen believers that it's a no-go.
For cars anyway. If in the future if HWB electric aircraft are built like the Nasa N3-X with a lot of extra volume to use, it might make sense. But even then I would sooner expect some alkane bio-fuel, or (not so bio*) created from agricultural and other waste.

*I don't think it would classify as synthetic fuel, since it would just be reforming of material with energy content, otherwise going to waste by breakdown by fungi and whatnot.

[mzso]

I feel the V12 would deliver a far superior entertainment spectacle for Formula One and would be the preferred solution of many fans. It would serve to eliminate the inessential turbocharger and MGUH from the powertrain (in exchange for 6 extra cylinders and injectors), while the power units could still be developed under a maximum fuel flow regulation for optimal naturally aspirated efficiency -- which would alleviate concerns of manufacturers merely "throwing bulk fuel" at the power unit to make power, which would be seen as environmentally untenable.

How so? How would racing be better with dodo engines? The main results would be less reliability (probably), and much worse efficiency (for a certainty). V12-s especially, they died out on their own, because it they were inferior to V10s.

Nothing useful to be gained. And only a small minority (even if it's a loud one) ejaculate in their pants from their sound, with no regard for the quality of racing or the intrigue of cutting edge technology.

I love that environmental and social relevance concerns are NUMBER ONE.

Hello, the socially relevant and environmentally sound approach to F1 is to abolish it!

LOL

Build normally aspirated screamers and let the fans enjoy the racing again.

None of this stuff is "socially relevant".

If they want to be relevant, make hydrogen powered engines. That's where everything will be down the road anyway.

You're using strawman arguments. There are few things that society cares more than entertainment, which includes F1.

Who only (or chiefly) care for dumb noise or not F1 fans only noise-nuts.

And your hydrogen comment was discredited by Jolle. But you're even more wrong than that implies, because you said "engines" insead of "motors". Burning hydrogen in engines is outright foolish. You'd just waste more energy with something that's also inferior by every measure of performance as well.