2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[mzso]

I don't recall F1 ever bringing any technical regulation change forward, it was always delaying and neutering changes. Perhaps times are changing.

However I wonder how engineers develop towards emotiveness in a power unit...

[JordanMugen]

How so? How would racing be better with dodo engines? The main results would be less reliability (probably), and much worse efficiency (for a certainty). V12-s especially, they died out on their own, because it they were inferior to V10s.

Nothing useful to be gained. And only a small minority (even if it's a loud one) ejaculate in their pants from their sound, with no regard for the quality of racing

A majority of auto enthusiasts do prefer older 8, 10 and 12 cylinders over modern 4 and 6 turbocharged engines supplemented with a hybrid system. (If the capacity had been set at 4.0L it would have suited V12s moreso than V10s, but that didn't stop so many 1.5, 3.0 and 3.5 V12s and flat-12s buying built or ordered over the years of Grand Prix racing by auto enthusiast engineers.)

Auto enthusiasts will actively seek to buy and inflate the used values of old Ferrari 550s, old Ferrari 458s or Audi R8s over purchasing a new turbocharged hybrid Honda NSX or Polestar P1.

I really do not understand how you managed to reach an opposite conclusion!?

The crowds turning their heads and standing at attention tells you all you need to know. When they go to a $500-ticket Grand Prix they want to experience something special , they shouldn't need to instead to go a $20-ticket historic meeting like this to experience something special.


Even Lewis Hamilton prefers the older power units and notes that the benefits of the 3.0 V10 (or a 3.2 V12) overweigh any efficiency or environmental advantages of the hybrid turbos, so I just don't follow your point that the hybrid turbo units provide superior racing entertainment.

That [3.0 V10] is just so good man. I hate that they've got rid of it.

- Lews Hamilton

or the intrigue of cutting edge technology.

If turbocharged hybrids are more intruiging to auto enthusiasts, why would 30-year-old James buy an old 'dodo' V12 550 (first released when he was seven years old!) instead of a "cutting-edge" 4-cylinder Polestar P1 with torque vectoring hybrid system? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHnySySUYLI

The 550 also has a H-pattern gearbox for that matter, which makes me happy. 90,000 miles on a Ferrari V12 -- seems like they are rather reliable after all too.

For us 30-somethings, is the golden era of the modern automobile going to be the 2000's (following the previous golden era in the 60's) and it's gone forever already towards the zero emissions autonomous EV abyss?

[JordanMugen]

However I wonder how engineers develop towards emotiveness in a power unit...

Music is pure emotion. Therefore the power units need to be able to play. That should be the criteria.



The cheers of the crowd show that the engineers succeeded in creating a power unit of high emotiveness.

After all Lewis Hamilton did NOT say:

That [3.0 V10] is just so obnoxious and socially unconscionable man. It's an utter disgrace that such a vile, polluting glorification of combustion could be dared to be shown in public. I am lost for words at how such an environmentally destructive unit with obscenely poor thermal efficiently could ever be seen on a racetrack in this day and age. It is an utterly disgusting dinosaur that belongs in a scrapyard.

Instead he said, " I hate that they've got rid of it", noting that he believes that advantages of the 3.0 V10 outweigh all of the disadvantages listed above.

[NL_Fer]

Of the choice would be a na v12, than Mercedes and Renault would lose all interest. They are financing 2 teams and salaries of Hamilton & Alonso. Aston Martin would be crippled, without Merc technology. Not sure how Ferrari would look at this.

How would F1 look with less money coming in and teams running a spec V12 by Cosworth or Gibson?

[mzso]

A majority of auto enthusiasts do prefer older 8, 10 and 12 cylinders

Which means you, and a handful of other old guys, stuck in the memories of their youth.
Most don't care.
I only particularly experience nostalgia, not desire.

Instead he said, " I hate that they've got rid of it", noting that he believes that advantages of the 3.0 V10 outweigh all of the disadvantages listed above.

Means nothing of the sort. You're just projecting your bias

[jjn9128]

A majority of auto enthusiasts do prefer older 8, 10 and 12 cylinders

Which means you, and a handful of other old guys, stuck in the memories of their youth.
Most don't care.
I only particularly experience nostalgia, not desire.

Instead he said, " I hate that they've got rid of it", noting that he believes that advantages of the 3.0 V10 outweigh all of the disadvantages listed above.

Means nothing of the sort. You're just projecting your bias

I'm not really interested in engines, in fact I find them mostly to be an annoyance for packaging, much like drivers but even I miss the V10s. They were small (relatively), light, powerful, plus they sounded great.

It's not just old people who want V10s back.

“That V10 scream. It has a wow factor and a fear factor,” says Daniel Ricciardo...
“In terms of crowd engagement I think we’ve lost something with the sound,” continued Ricciardo.
“I remember arriving with my dad for the grand prix at Melbourne as a kid, the first time. We got out the taxi and got the suitcases out of the boot and we could hear the F1 cars at the track – their sound was carrying into the city.
“I looked at him and he looked at me and there were goosebumps. It was like ‘wow, we’re here’.

[JordanMugen]

Most don't care.

Perhaps. I replaced my Renault Megane RS with another Civic Type R as the Megane's turbocharged engine was effective yet awful. The engine sounded like a blender and felt like a blender, it was effective but just not pleasant or enjoyable.

[There were other deficiencies compared to the Civic as well like overly slow steering, overly light steering, overly large & thick steering wheel, rubbery long-throw gearshift that's too far away from the steering wheel, inefficient boot packaging (very important in a shopping hatchback) etc but the uninteresting nature of turbocharged engines is the dealbreaker. The only real advantage of the Megane was a more neutral chassis balance, with a more lively rear. The Civic is just so much more enjoyable to drive in every other way, it's a night and day difference. ]

How would F1 look with less money coming in and teams running a spec V12 by Cosworth or Gibson?

It would be fine. For one thing, with a competent customer power unit available to all runners, there wouldn't be the rival political factions between say Mercedes and Red Bull, and Red Bull wouldn't need to go the trouble of setting up their own powertrain department when the only reason they are doing that is because Mercedes refuses to supply them with customer power units.

[Jolle]

How so? How would racing be better with dodo engines? The main results would be less reliability (probably), and much worse efficiency (for a certainty). V12-s especially, they died out on their own, because it they were inferior to V10s.

Nothing useful to be gained. And only a small minority (even if it's a loud one) ejaculate in their pants from their sound, with no regard for the quality of racing

A majority of auto enthusiasts do prefer older 8, 10 and 12 cylinders over modern 4 and 6 turbocharged engines supplemented with a hybrid system. (If the capacity had been set at 4.0L it would have suited V12s moreso than V10s, but that didn't stop so many 1.5, 3.0 and 3.5 V12s and flat-12s buying built or ordered over the years of Grand Prix racing by auto enthusiast engineers.)

Auto enthusiasts will actively seek to buy and inflate the used values of old Ferrari 550s, old Ferrari 458s or Audi R8s over purchasing a new turbocharged hybrid Honda NSX or Polestar P1.

I really do not understand how you managed to reach an opposite conclusion!?

The crowds turning their heads and standing at attention tells you all you need to know. When they go to a $500-ticket Grand Prix they want to experience something special , they shouldn't need to instead to go a $20-ticket historic meeting like this to experience something special.


Even Lewis Hamilton prefers the older power units and notes that the benefits of the 3.0 V10 (or a 3.2 V12) overweigh any efficiency or environmental advantages of the hybrid turbos, so I just don't follow your point that the hybrid turbo units provide superior racing entertainment.

That [3.0 V10] is just so good man. I hate that they've got rid of it.

- Lews Hamilton

or the intrigue of cutting edge technology.

If turbocharged hybrids are more intruiging to auto enthusiasts, why would 30-year-old James buy an old 'dodo' V12 550 (first released when he was seven years old!) instead of a "cutting-edge" 4-cylinder Polestar P1 with torque vectoring hybrid system? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHnySySUYLI

The 550 also has a H-pattern gearbox for that matter, which makes me happy. 90,000 miles on a Ferrari V12 -- seems like they are rather reliable after all too.

For us 30-somethings, is the golden era of the modern automobile going to be the 2000's (following the previous golden era in the 60's) and it's gone forever already towards the zero emissions autonomous EV abyss?

That’s why the Ferrari F40 is widely considered as the ultimate drivers car! Because of its beautiful V12. Same for all the lovers of EVO’s, scoobies and the top 911 models. Bring back the V12! If it’s good enough for Jody Scheckter it’s good enough for us!

[JordanMugen]

That’s why the Ferrari F40 is widely considered as the ultimate drivers car! Because of its beautiful V12.

I prefer the F50 and I think Tiff does too.

"An F50 is worth about three times as much as an F40. You can't help but go down a gear and build the revs higher like
a conductor. Higher, higher! Like a Grand Prix car, there is no insulation of the driver from the structurally-integral V12. You not only hear it, you feel it through your body. You might not be able to hear me, but you can tell the revs I'm doing by the smile on my face." - Tiff Needell


[Not a single mention of the F50's CO2 per km anywhere in the film! ]

Same for all the lovers of EVO’s, scoobies and the top 911 models.

Do you find the Porsche 911 Turbo or GT2 enjoyable? The turbocharged engine is effective yet dull, the naturally aspirated GT3 model is far more loved AFAIK.

This rich bloke preferred the GT3 over the Turbo for instance:

I went thru the same thing a few years ago - drove both a Turbo and a GT3. Once I had the GT3 North of about 4000 RPM's, the decision was made. Two different cars, but I wanted a "toy" and the GT3 is just a raw animal.

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threa ... bo.547507/

There's nothing worse than the hordes of Evos and STis found at a hillclimb event, they are the very epitome of effective but boring. There are so many of them, they are all so similar, and they are just not very interesting (at least not on tarmac, perhaps they would be rather more at home on a slippy gravel or snow surface )! [By contrast with "lots of revs & lot of slides", the Group A BMW M3 rally car is a whole of fun!]

I should know, my WRX was one of (of the hordes) at one point! A lively 2WD naturally aspirated scrabbling for traction and revving out is just so much more interesting than the dreary AWD turbocharged masses don't you think?

The current turbocharged hybrid power units are OK, but if the goal is to elicit emotion then, as Tiff describes above, surely a naturally aspirated hybrid power unit would be the way to go? The direct connection of audible engine speed to forward thrust just makes a lot more sense to a human's brain, then the abstract connection of engine boost to forward thrust...

The only way you can know the engine boost (or electric power) is from a gauge!

Watching Yuki Tsonuda go round with the hybrid power unit. It's OK, it's an imposing car with it's sheer size and downforce, but it's just not that thrilling as spectacle. It just isn't. I get bored before the end of the film and can't even make it all the way through. You shouldn't need to rely on the element of competition to add the spectacle, the Grand Prix cars should be a spectacle in their own right.


By contrast, Webber's naturally aspirated BMW Williams Grand Prix car was a spectacle in it's own right -- even when it was merely plodding across an inner city motorway:

[mzso]

“That V10 scream. It has a wow factor and a fear factor,” says Daniel Ricciardo...
“In terms of crowd engagement I think we’ve lost something with the sound,” continued Ricciardo.
“I remember arriving with my dad for the grand prix at Melbourne as a kid, the first time. We got out the taxi and got the suitcases out of the boot and we could hear the F1 cars at the track – their sound was carrying into the city.
“I looked at him and he looked at me and there were goosebumps. It was like ‘wow, we’re here’.

Well, he is also romanticizing childhood memories. I miss title fights and on-track overtaking much more.

[Stu]

How so? How would racing be better with dodo engines? The main results would be less reliability (probably), and much worse efficiency (for a certainty). V12-s especially, they died out on their own, because it they were inferior to V10s.

Nothing useful to be gained. And only a small minority (even if it's a loud one) ejaculate in their pants from their sound, with no regard for the quality of racing

A majority of auto enthusiasts do prefer older 8, 10 and 12 cylinders over modern 4 and 6 turbocharged engines supplemented with a hybrid system. (If the capacity had been set at 4.0L it would have suited V12s moreso than V10s, but that didn't stop so many 1.5, 3.0 and 3.5 V12s and flat-12s buying built or ordered over the years of Grand Prix racing by auto enthusiast engineers.)

Auto enthusiasts will actively seek to buy and inflate the used values of old Ferrari 550s, old Ferrari 458s or Audi R8s over purchasing a new turbocharged hybrid Honda NSX or Polestar P1.

I really do not understand how you managed to reach an opposite conclusion!?

The crowds turning their heads and standing at attention tells you all you need to know. When they go to a $500-ticket Grand Prix they want to experience something special , they shouldn't need to instead to go a $20-ticket historic meeting like this to experience something special.


Even Lewis Hamilton prefers the older power units and notes that the benefits of the 3.0 V10 (or a 3.2 V12) overweigh any efficiency or environmental advantages of the hybrid turbos, so I just don't follow your point that the hybrid turbo units provide superior racing entertainment.

That [3.0 V10] is just so good man. I hate that they've got rid of it.

- Lews Hamilton

or the intrigue of cutting edge technology.

If turbocharged hybrids are more intruiging to auto enthusiasts, why would 30-year-old James buy an old 'dodo' V12 550 (first released when he was seven years old!) instead of a "cutting-edge" 4-cylinder Polestar P1 with torque vectoring hybrid system? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHnySySUYLI

The 550 also has a H-pattern gearbox for that matter, which makes me happy. 90,000 miles on a Ferrari V12 -- seems like they are rather reliable after all too.

For us 30-somethings, is the golden era of the modern automobile going to be the 2000's (following the previous golden era in the 60's) and it's gone forever already towards the zero emissions autonomous EV abyss?

That’s why the Ferrari F40 is widely considered as the ultimate drivers car! Because of its beautiful V12. Same for all the lovers of EVO’s, scoobies and the top 911 models. Bring back the V12! If it’s good enough for Jody Scheckter it’s good enough for us!

The F40 was a V8 with turbos. Regarded as ultimate drivers car as electronics only control engine functions. No TC, no ESP, no ABS. Oh, and it was the first ‘production’ car to beat the 200mph barrier (they also did a monster Racing version for Le Mans that produced something like 8-900bhp in qualifying trim). For the same reason many people love the original Mazda MX5, although that is far more accessible!!

[Jolle]

A majority of auto enthusiasts do prefer older 8, 10 and 12 cylinders over modern 4 and 6 turbocharged engines supplemented with a hybrid system. (If the capacity had been set at 4.0L it would have suited V12s moreso than V10s, but that didn't stop so many 1.5, 3.0 and 3.5 V12s and flat-12s buying built or ordered over the years of Grand Prix racing by auto enthusiast engineers.)

Auto enthusiasts will actively seek to buy and inflate the used values of old Ferrari 550s, old Ferrari 458s or Audi R8s over purchasing a new turbocharged hybrid Honda NSX or Polestar P1.

I really do not understand how you managed to reach an opposite conclusion!?

The crowds turning their heads and standing at attention tells you all you need to know. When they go to a $500-ticket Grand Prix they want to experience something special , they shouldn't need to instead to go a $20-ticket historic meeting like this to experience something special.


Even Lewis Hamilton prefers the older power units and notes that the benefits of the 3.0 V10 (or a 3.2 V12) overweigh any efficiency or environmental advantages of the hybrid turbos, so I just don't follow your point that the hybrid turbo units provide superior racing entertainment.


- Lews Hamilton




If turbocharged hybrids are more intruiging to auto enthusiasts, why would 30-year-old James buy an old 'dodo' V12 550 (first released when he was seven years old!) instead of a "cutting-edge" 4-cylinder Polestar P1 with torque vectoring hybrid system? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHnySySUYLI

The 550 also has a H-pattern gearbox for that matter, which makes me happy. 90,000 miles on a Ferrari V12 -- seems like they are rather reliable after all too.

For us 30-somethings, is the golden era of the modern automobile going to be the 2000's (following the previous golden era in the 60's) and it's gone forever already towards the zero emissions autonomous EV abyss?

That’s why the Ferrari F40 is widely considered as the ultimate drivers car! Because of its beautiful V12. Same for all the lovers of EVO’s, scoobies and the top 911 models. Bring back the V12! If it’s good enough for Jody Scheckter it’s good enough for us!

The F40 was a V8 with turbos. Regarded as ultimate drivers car as electronics only control engine functions. No TC, no ESP, no ABS. Oh, and it was the first ‘production’ car to beat the 200mph barrier (they also did a monster Racing version for Le Mans that produced something like 8-900bhp in qualifying trim). For the same reason many people love the original Mazda MX5, although that is far more accessible!!

(I know )

[J.A.W.]

The F40 was a V8 with turbos... and it was the first ‘production’ car to beat the 200mph barrier...

In actual fact Stu, as linked below, & 1/2 a century ago - the Dodge Charger Daytona was the 1st
'production' car - to formally achieve 200+ mph records (officially set at Bonneville salt flats):

https://jalopnik.com/how-a-nascar-drive ... ed-5847047


On the topic of how a next-gen F1 might provide exciting engine sound, perhaps the already
mooted 2-stroke tech idea can provide it, perhaps via an opposed 6 piston/3 cylinder engine?

Hear below - even a low revving (~7,000rpm) 2-stroke triple - sounds quite 'racy'...

[godlameroso]

No matter the engine, please don't make it another V6, they all sound like vacuum cleaners. V4 would be more interesting in my opinion than a V6. V8-12 sound glorious but it's too many for this day and age.

Here's a thought, should F1 engines be longitudinally mounted? From an aero and other dynamics perspective it's the best, and most logical choice. Transversely mounted engines? Would it even be worth it? Such a wide engine plus gearbox would limit the coke bottle shape of the car.

The only upside to an inline engine is that it's relevant to what most people run in their cars. It's as long as a V8 and the bracing needed to make it a stressed member of the chassis will make it nearly as wide.

[Blackout]

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