Mercedes W12

[Ashwinv16]

I believed so too, but in an interview between ted kravitz and christian horner yesterday, ted was pretty keen to believe that assuming mercs and redbulls are sealing the floor to a similar degree, mercs are always losing out on account of running a lower rake



Its in the 2nd interview, just after Valterri bottas

A few things you need to keep in mind when you listen to anything Ted says.

1) He is a sky reporter first and foremost. Thus just like the rest of his peers, he is predisposed to exaggeration and hype to engage the average fan.
2) Despite being positioned as the "technical" member of the Sky team, Ted has not technical background to speak of. He has been a reporter/presenter his entire career.

Setting all the above aside for a moment, It needs to be pointed out that Ted is making his comment under the guise of everything else being equal. However (as he surely knows) over the last several year everything else hasn't been equal.

I don't have the numbers for this years cars, and I couldn't even find a reliable resource for last years cars either so take the following with a grain of salt. For the last several years, Mercedes has run a longer car with a longer wheelbase than its competitors. This means it has a larger floor area, and thus doesn't have to work the floor as hard as its competitors to generate a given amount of downforce.

Purely for reference here are the Wheelbase numbers for 2018.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-t ... 6/5295276/

RBR - 3550mm
Merc - 3726mm (4.95% longer)

This is actually right, longer wheelbase means there is more space to decrease the pressure and to create a area of low pressure, so the wheel base is technically inversly proprotional to the rake for the downforce, sealing created by the floor. Now the new floor changes remember brings an angle component to it as well as the floors now cut in to as the edge angle inwards from the reat tyres.

I am still doing some readings on it but as far as I understand the low rake floors will have something known as ground buffetting due to this cut which generates it's own set of vortices and these vortices will grow large enough downstream towards the rear wheels, hitting the ground and the floor at the same time causing the edge of the floor to "buffet" or flex up and down. Higher rake means more gorund clearence so this problem is mitigated. This is also why Mercedes had to "artifically" increase the surface area" (They use this term cause there is a equation where increaseing surface area mans something but I forgot ) with the curvy front part of the floor while Red Bull does'nt exactly have to make them curvy ("They can though").

This is probably what christian horner horner is on about.

[zibby43]

To add on to what dans79 pointed out above, it sure would be nice for Ted to explain why losing floor area and floor sealing tools makes it better for the team that absolutely needs to rely sealing the rear of the floor to make the concept work.

To say Ted's logic was circular there would be kind.

Regardless, all evidence I've seen points to both high and low-rake cars being affected by the changes. Lost downforce is lost downforce, and teams like RBR and Merc have lost valuable tools and floor area to make their concepts work.

As I mentioned previously, while Mercedes lost some surface area at the rear, they still have more floor area relative to shorter-wheelbase cars. After the reg changes, Merc still has a net advantage on how long the floor can work the airflow on the way to the diffuser.

[dans79]

Regardless, all evidence I've seen points to both high and low-rake cars being affected by the changes. Lost downforce is lost downforce, and teams like RBR and Merc have lost valuable tools and floor area to make their concepts work.

Honestly, I think this iswhy I hear a slight bit of annoyance ("You sound almost like you know what you're talking about", "You can read what you like.") in Horner's responses towards the end of the segment.

Short of a major screw up by someone, or someone finding a significant loophole none of the top teams would have agreed to the 2021 rules if they thought it stood a real chance of handicapping them. Not to mention Mercedes with 3 customer teams has a good bit of leverage.

[ryaan2904]

I believed so too, but in an interview between ted kravitz and christian horner yesterday, ted was pretty keen to believe that assuming mercs and redbulls are sealing the floor to a similar degree, mercs are always losing out on account of running a lower rake



Its in the 2nd interview, just after Valterri bottas

A few things you need to keep in mind when you listen to anything Ted says.

1) He is a sky reporter first and foremost. Thus just like the rest of his peers, he is predisposed to exaggeration and hype to engage the average fan.
2) Despite being positioned as the "technical" member of the Sky team, Ted has not technical background to speak of. He has been a reporter/presenter his entire career.

Setting all the above aside for a moment, It needs to be pointed out that Ted is making his comment under the guise of everything else being equal. However (as he surely knows) over the last several year everything else hasn't been equal.

I don't have the numbers for this years cars, and I couldn't even find a reliable resource for last years cars either so take the following with a grain of salt. For the last several years, Mercedes has run a longer car with a longer wheelbase than its competitors. This means it has a larger floor area, and thus doesn't have to work the floor as hard as its competitors to generate a given amount of downforce.

Purely for reference here are the Wheelbase numbers for 2018.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-t ... 6/5295276/

RBR - 3550mm
Merc - 3726mm (4.95% longer)

True that. Plus, I can't really believe that merc haven't thought this through. I mean, they had the longest time available to think this through so...
Though atm, the redbulls look unbeatable. We'll see later on i guess

[zibby43]

Short of a major screw up by someone, or someone finding a significant loophole none of the top teams would have agreed to the 2021 rules if they thought it stood a real chance of handicapping them. Not to mention Mercedes with 3 customer teams has a good bit of leverage.

Did the teams have a say with respect to these '21 changes, or were they simply prescribed?

On an unrelated note, the lighting on this rear diffuser shot is pretty outstanding:

[ryaan2904]

To add on to what dans79 pointed out above, it sure would be nice for Ted to explain why losing floor area and floor sealing tools makes it better for the team that absolutely needs to rely sealing the rear of the floor to make the concept work.

To say Ted's logic was circular there would be kind.

Regardless, all evidence I've seen points to both high and low-rake cars being affected by the changes. Lost downforce is lost downforce, and teams like RBR and Merc have lost valuable tools and floor area to make their concepts work.

As I mentioned previously, while Mercedes lost some surface area at the rear, they still have more floor area relative to shorter-wheelbase cars. After the reg changes, Merc still has a net advantage on how long the floor can work the airflow on the way to the diffuser.

Have redbull and Ferrari not increased their wheelbases?

[zibby43]

To add on to what dans79 pointed out above, it sure would be nice for Ted to explain why losing floor area and floor sealing tools makes it better for the team that absolutely needs to rely sealing the rear of the floor to make the concept work.

To say Ted's logic was circular there would be kind.

Regardless, all evidence I've seen points to both high and low-rake cars being affected by the changes. Lost downforce is lost downforce, and teams like RBR and Merc have lost valuable tools and floor area to make their concepts work.

As I mentioned previously, while Mercedes lost some surface area at the rear, they still have more floor area relative to shorter-wheelbase cars. After the reg changes, Merc still has a net advantage on how long the floor can work the airflow on the way to the diffuser.

Have redbull and Ferrari not increased their wheelbases?

Even if they have slightly, the last time a comprehensive wheelbase table was put together in 2019, the Red Bull was the shortest at 3,619 mm and the W10 the longest at 3,698. Ferrari at 3,653.

[dans79]

Did the teams have a say with respect to these '21 changes, or were they simply prescribed?

If memory serves teams get to vote on everything, unless it's a safety related change. on top of that, the old school method of dragging their feet on something else can be used. For example https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/merce ... 2/4980402/

[dans79]

Even if they have slightly, the last time a comprehensive wheelbase table was put together in 2019, the Red Bull was the shortest at 3,619 mm and the W10 the longest at 3,698. Ferrari at 3,653.

If I may ask where did you get these?

wikipedia lists the w10's wheelbase as 3,726mm but the referenced source page doesn't actually give a value. it just says it's the same as the last two years (not overly reassuring).

[zibby43]

Did the teams have a say with respect to these '21 changes, or were they simply prescribed?

If memory serves teams get to vote on everything, unless it's a safety related change. on top of that, the old school method of dragging their feet on something else can be used. For example https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/merce ... 2/4980402/

I wasn't super familiar with all the procedural steps for the '21 aero reg changes in the context of COVID, new tires, etc.

Re: the wheelbase data, I pulled it from here (I haven't corroborated it with a second source, but recent wheelbase data is difficult to find): https://maxf1.net/en/f1-2019-cars-lengt ... rake-data/

[Jozsusz]

So what do you think?

Does the car have a "fatal" flow?
Does the new rules favour the high rake?
Will Merc be able to make the car stable and fast?

[DarthPlagueisTheVise]

I will be really dissapointed if this is the actual race 1-spec w12 since they have been working on this %100 since august last year

[zibby43]

Here is what we know so far, in terms of both general principles, and what we've been able to observe the past 3 days:

• In general, high-rake cars have more peak rear downforce potential due to the artificially adding volume to the diffuser
  
  Mercedes have been able to get away with a low-rake philosophy by utilizing greater floor surface area (the underfloor area is vitally critical here); while this sacrifices peak downforce potential, they've had the tools to provide a platform that is very stable and consistent
  
  The '21 regulation changes have seemed to penalize the low rake approach
  
  Mercedes look to be attempting to run higher rake at the rear
  
  The W12 rear end has been inconsistent and unstable at times on all 3 testing days

[wesley123]

To add on to what dans79 pointed out above, it sure would be nice for Ted to explain why losing floor area and floor sealing tools makes it better for the team that absolutely needs to rely sealing the rear of the floor to make the concept work.

Everyone relies on it.

As I mentioned previously, while Mercedes lost some surface area at the rear, they still have more floor area relative to shorter-wheelbase cars. After the reg changes, Merc still has a net advantage on how long the floor can work the airflow on the way to the diffuser.

The difference compared to other cars is fairly negligable. It isn't the 20cm longer they were in 2017.

Here is what we know so far, in terms of both general principles, and what we've been able to observe the past 3 days:

• In general, high-rake cars have more peak rear downforce potential due to the artificially adding volume to the diffuser

Not necessarily true since they run higher from the ground, and thus less ground effect.

The '21 regulation changes have seemed to penalize the low rake approach

Because?

The idea that a solution that will have less exposure to tyre squirt will face a larger impact from the loss of those slots that manage tyre squirt is highly illogical.

Mercedes look to be attempting to run higher rake at the rear

And like always, there is no certainty of such condition. People read waaaaaaayyyy too much into rake.

The W12 rear end has been inconsistent and unstable at times on all 3 testing days[/list]

Could very easily be mechanical, or a multiple of things.

[Chuckjr]

Maybe first chink in the Merc armor? Hmm. I’d imagine if it is a floor buffeting flaw, not saying it is, but if it is, that’s not something a simulator or computer would be accurate replicating or foreseeing, correct? Maybe that’s why they have been caught out? It just seems impossible this would happen with their incredible resources unless it was something that would hide itself from computers and simulation and they couldn’t have seen it. Maybe it’s a natural phenomena that only happens on an actual track with an actual car interacting with the environment?

If it is a fundamental flaw, it’s not fixable in season since the cars entire aero philosophy is low rake. Wouldn’t this also affect the 2022 design, no? I’m assuming the 2022 design is long car low rake also.

Maybe it’s nothing, and the car just needs a bit of sorting. It happens.