Mercedes W12

[christian.falavena]

Pneumatic chamber requires the bulge on the side of the car. It's the chamber containing compressed air from the turbo before entering the combustion chamber on the ICE.

[Morteza]

[Just_a_fan]

https://youtu.be/pFQeGKG8KoQ

Interesting that he says HPP got "a lot of more horsepower" by redesigning the plenum. I wonder how they define "a lot more" in this context. 25hp? 50hp?

Also interesting that they reused the actual tubs from last year rather than build new ones for this year. I guess it saves money so makes sense.

Obviously the video was recorded before the test weekend, so I wonder if his grin is still there today.

[Morteza]

https://youtu.be/pFQeGKG8KoQ

Interesting that he says HPP got "a lot of more horsepower" by redesigning the plenum. I wonder how they define "a lot more" in this context. 25hp? 50hp?

Also interesting that they reused the actual tubs from last year rather than build new ones for this year. I guess it saves money so makes sense.

Obviously the video was recorded before the test weekend, so I wonder if his grin is still there today.

I think it was recorded the day W12 was unveiled.

[SiLo]

What's really odd is that Bahrain is still a relative power track with 3 fairly long straights. So if they have gained the power they say, plus had a great engine last year, where did all that speed go?

[SirBastianVettel]

What's really odd is that Bahrain is still a relative power track with 3 fairly long straights. So if they have gained the power they say, plus had a great engine last year, where did all that speed go?

I think you may have answered your own question in another thread .

I'll say it again, it really looked like they struggled to get the rear tyres to work properly, which was compounded by poor conditions initially and being on a rear limited track that they haven't always been fantastic on.

[Longley]

https://youtu.be/pFQeGKG8KoQ

Since James said the coolers are new in the W12 we know where Mercedes spent the tokens or?

[cheeRS]

https://youtu.be/pFQeGKG8KoQ

Interesting that he says HPP got "a lot of more horsepower" by redesigning the plenum. I wonder how they define "a lot more" in this context. 25hp? 50hp?

Also interesting that they reused the actual tubs from last year rather than build new ones for this year. I guess it saves money so makes sense.

Obviously the video was recorded before the test weekend, so I wonder if his grin is still there today.

That phrase "squeeze a lot more horsepower out" gets me giddy..

In cutting edge engineering, "a lot" can be like... 1%. Or 5%, maybe even 10%. My non-engineer guess would be 25-50HP, so 2.5-7.5% depending on how they rate the PU output (ICE only or total PU system) could be reasonable, especially if this is something they consider to be a major change. Does the plenum chamber effectively act like a compressor tank, allowing full boost/turbo spool for an entire lap? Does it enable a flatter torque curve? Higher RPM that the typical 12k? Can it basically power the turbo at max efficiency even during braking/0% throttle?

This is all really interesting, but I'm sure some of it is banned by the current rules. Hope we get to find out more.

[LightningLewis]

https://youtu.be/pFQeGKG8KoQ

Regarding the tokens:

https://ibb.co/Fb486tr

From the comment section.
Interesting to see what it is.

[PlatinumZealot]

https://youtu.be/pFQeGKG8KoQ

Interesting that he says HPP got "a lot of more horsepower" by redesigning the plenum. I wonder how they define "a lot more" in this context. 25hp? 50hp?

Also interesting that they reused the actual tubs from last year rather than build new ones for this year. I guess it saves money so makes sense.

Obviously the video was recorded before the test weekend, so I wonder if his grin is still there today.

That phrase "squeeze a lot more horsepower out" gets me giddy..

In cutting edge engineering, "a lot" can be like... 1%. Or 5%, maybe even 10%. My non-engineer guess would be 25-50HP, so 2.5-7.5% depending on how they rate the PU output (ICE only or total PU system) could be reasonable, especially if this is something they consider to be a major change. Does the plenum chamber effectively act like a compressor tank, allowing full boost/turbo spool for an entire lap? Does it enable a flatter torque curve? Higher RPM that the typical 12k? Can it basically power the turbo at max efficiency even during braking/0% throttle?

This is all really interesting, but I'm sure some of it is banned by the current rules. Hope we get to find out more.

Longer variable trumpets or possibly a second air cooler inside of there?

[F1Fan2018]

https://youtu.be/pFQeGKG8KoQ

Regarding the tokens:

https://ibb.co/Fb486tr

From the comment section.
Interesting to see what it is.

So If we go by that then, we haven't seen the complete areo package yet? As if it's going to become clear in time ie clearly visible then they just haven't bolted that on yet as it's not clear at the moment or not clear to me anyway (just guessing and going from Mercedes comment)

[wesley123]

To add on to what dans79 pointed out above, it sure would be nice for Ted to explain why losing floor area and floor sealing tools makes it better for the team that absolutely needs to rely sealing the rear of the floor to make the concept work.

Everyone relies on it.

As I mentioned previously, while Mercedes lost some surface area at the rear, they still have more floor area relative to shorter-wheelbase cars. After the reg changes, Merc still has a net advantage on how long the floor can work the airflow on the way to the diffuser.

The difference compared to other cars is fairly negligable. It isn't the 20cm longer they were in 2017.

Here is what we know so far, in terms of both general principles, and what we've been able to observe the past 3 days:

• In general, high-rake cars have more peak rear downforce potential due to the artificially adding volume to the diffuser

Not necessarily true since they run higher from the ground, and thus less ground effect.

The '21 regulation changes have seemed to penalize the low rake approach

Because?

The idea that a solution that will have less exposure to tyre squirt will face a larger impact from the loss of those slots that manage tyre squirt is highly illogical.

Mercedes look to be attempting to run higher rake at the rear

And like always, there is no certainty of such condition. People read waaaaaaayyyy too much into rake.

The W12 rear end has been inconsistent and unstable at times on all 3 testing days[/list]

Could very easily be mechanical, or a multiple of things.

1) Not necessarily? That’s why it’s called a general principle lol.

2) Except it’s not just about the loss of the slots, is it?

It’s loss of floor surface area, rear brake duct fins, the length of the diffuser strakes, etc.

And a multitude of things need to change both upstream and downstream to compensate for the sum of those changes.

4) We’re all just speculating, but judging by how the rear end of the car is breaking away and behaving unpredictably (similar to the RB16), in a year that the aero regs were changed, smacks of an aero balance problem, and not a mechanical one.

Furthermore, it seems the gusting winds exacerbated the problem in Bahrain. Which, again, doesn’t speak to mechanical problems.

Per Mark Hughes, who spoke to Mercedes’ engineers, they’re having no trouble with switching on the tires.

Is something stalling with the aero?

Feel free to add what you think the issues are. Would love to hear it. But everything I’ve observed, and everything we’ve heard from Merc, points toward aero.

No one can really know for sure what it is, but to say it must be because of rake and the loss of area(is this even true, though?) compared to others is a bit quick to say without anything to back it up. Remember we have a green Mercedes running as well, which did not face issues, even though they will have had the exact same effect of the rule changes.

The thing about aero is that it can be balanced out, they could have taken off front wing for example if rear aero was a problem. The aero could have been bandaided in the 3 days to allow for more running. An aero issue would also most likely have been caught in CFD, windtunnel and/or the simulator. And a fix for that would most likely have been trialed under a shakedown.

Therefore I personally think it is more likely that they brought something new that didn't work out, but wasn't easily fixable.

[dans79]

So if they have gained the power they say, plus had a great engine last year, where did all that speed go?

Look at lewis's fp1 time from last year to his best time from testing.

look at turn 8.

On turn in he is substantially slower at the same point on the track 133 KM/H vs 168 KM/H
minimum speed is 79 KM/H vs 82 KM/H
minimum gear is 2nd vs 3rd
Then as you would expect he is accelerating much faster out of the turn (lower gear).

it kind of seems like he doesn't trust the front end right now, and is thus braking earlier,and compensating for that by getting on the power sooner and more aggressively. That kind of explains the slow speed and snapping and sliding from rear end.

If I had to guess this is an aero balance issue, coupled with not understanding the tires.

[zibby43]

No one can really know for sure what it is, but to say it must be because of rake and the loss of area(is this even true, though?) compared to others is a bit quick to say without anything to back it up. Remember we have a green Mercedes running as well, which did not face issues, even though they will have had the exact same effect of the rule changes.

The thing about aero is that it can be balanced out, they could have taken off front wing for example if rear aero was a problem. The aero could have been bandaided in the 3 days to allow for more running. An aero issue would also most likely have been caught in CFD, windtunnel and/or the simulator. And a fix for that would most likely have been trialed under a shakedown.

Therefore I personally think it is more likely that they brought something new that didn't work out, but wasn't easily fixable.

Thought this was an interesting piece re: W12 being susceptible to crosswinds, much like the W10, which also fell on its face from a balance perspective in Bahrain 2019 (and Suzuka in 2019): https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... w-over-mph

Also, there is this from AmuS:

"Mercedes are not worried about the fact that they didn't do many laps during testing. A real race simulation was never planned. The thing that worries Mercedes is the rear of the W12 (rear instability).

Sometimes the Mercedes engineers thought they had found a solution for one type of corner, then the problem reappeared in another corner. Sometimes all it took was a change in the wind and the supposedly better balance was gone again."

Mercedes: 'Our car is not as stable in the rear as it has been in recent years. At the moment we don't understand why. There is no particular pattern. But we will put all our energy into finding an answer to this question in the 12 days until the season starts.'

Mercedes: 'We can't even say where the instability comes from. From the aerodynamics, from the new tyres, from the interaction between the two. It is unlikely that the suspensions have anything to do with it.'

Mercedes on whether the floor change favours Red Bull: 'That would have to be clarified in the wind tunnel through a comparative test. But so far there is no indication that generally cars with a low rake like ours are affected..."

It makes no sense now for the aero department to go into action. An upgrade would be useless because it would miss the target:

'Any fundamental aerodynamic flaw would show up in the data.'

The rather modest top speed of the two Mercedes was also noticeable but both drivers were allowed to use maximum power at certain times each day. However, Mercedes equipped their cars with bigger wings than Red Bull and Alpha Tauri. That explains the gap on the straight."

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... n-bahrain/

[dans79]

Also, there is this from AmuS:

So they either have another Diva on their hands, or the very short and sporadic nature of testing this year has really hammered them. My gut says it's the later, because over the last several years any time practice was cut short or the weather conditions have been adverse they have struggled with setup relative to their opponents.