Mercedes W12

[atanatizante]

Does fuel cell affect rake - aero platform? Sure it does a bit.

Especially under braking - pitch. Team even use that to take advantage.

Roll and steering response is another issue witch effect tire patches. Hence different tire heating, wear patterns and ultimately grip. Aero balance changes could be affected if teams are not careful. Ofc problem could be alleviate with "nice" "balanced" aero design.

Hence all that media mantra about balance and snappy cars or nervous drivers. But again because problem exist for centuries of racing. So teams honed its skills and studied its effect quite nicely i would say.

So yeah predictable and low CofG still gives you less headaches for sure. Contradictory nowadays teams consciously raising CofG for bigger gain elsewhere. Normally in names of aero benefits - high noses, high wing blow exhausts, high FW/RW wishbones, central rads, raised gearboxes, raised diffs casings, split turbo design, raised h2o intercooler, high tuck-in plumbing all over car, raised crash structures etc.

If I`m not wrong it was James Allison who said a couple of years ago that altering their car rake philosophy need a complete overhaul of the entire aero platform, something they don`t have the expertise, time and now money in order to do that?

[SiLo]

Does fuel cell affect rake - aero platform? Sure it does a bit.

Especially under braking - pitch. Team even use that to take advantage.

Roll and steering response is another issue witch effect tire patches. Hence different tire heating, wear patterns and ultimately grip. Aero balance changes could be affected if teams are not careful. Ofc problem could be alleviate with "nice" "balanced" aero design.

Hence all that media mantra about balance and snappy cars or nervous drivers. But again because problem exist for centuries of racing. So teams honed its skills and studied its effect quite nicely i would say.

So yeah predictable and low CofG still gives you less headaches for sure. Contradictory nowadays teams consciously raising CofG for bigger gain elsewhere. Normally in names of aero benefits - high noses, high wing blow exhausts, high FW/RW wishbones, central rads, raised gearboxes, raised diffs casings, split turbo design, raised h2o intercooler, high tuck-in plumbing all over car, raised crash structures etc.

If I`m not wrong it was James Allison who said a couple of years ago that altering their car rake philosophy need a complete overhaul of the entire aero platform, something they don`t have the expertise, time and now money in order to do that?

That is correct. They would have to redesign the entire car because everything from the front wing backwards effects how the air interacts with the car. It would basically require an entire new car to be designed, and obviously with new regs for next year it's just pointless to do so.

[Sierra117]

I feel they should be able to figure things out. It makes sense that the tyres and thus resulting inconsistency in models would cause what we are seeing so far. Corroborating this is when Lewis said one of his aero engineers did lots of work and gave useful numbers to improve their performance.

Like in the earlier seasons, once they figure out the tyres I think it would be no issue to design the parts needed on the aero side to work with their low rake.

[dans79]

In a round about way, I could see the tires being the root cause of everything.

The real world doesn't match their simulations, and doesn't match the data they were given.

To make the tires work they have to use a sub optimal suspension set up.

The sub optimal suspension set-up, and tires that don't perform like the data they were given, messes with the aero ballance.

To fix the aero issue they have to add on more downforce (most likely dirty downforce), and get additional drag along with it.

The sub optimal suspension set-up and extra drag means they can't get the power down how and when they want to.

To try and salvage as much lap time as possible they have to change the mappings/deployment. Again, the new mappings are probably sub optimal and not as efficient, hence the derates.

It's all interconnected, and around and around in circles they go. It's like a game of whack 'Em All.

[DarthPlagueisTheVise]

I don't know if someone has already posted this but I think these winglets are new

[e30ernest]

https://hizliresim.com/zM03lk
https://hizliresim.com/ykc8JL
I don't know if someone has already posted this but I think these winglets are new

I believe they are this winglet?



I could be wrong, but they seem the same from testing:

[atanatizante]

...

The sub-optimal suspension set-up, and tires that don't perform like the data they were given, messes with the aero balance.

To fix the aero issue they have to add on more downforce (most likely dirty downforce) and get additional drag along with it.

...

So, correct me if I understood well: in order to get these 2021 tyres (being harder than 2020) working operation window, they need to add more rear DF/more AoA RW with additional rear suspension adjustments. (For the moment let`s forget about drag). This setup induces an aero imbalance which requires more front DF hence a more AoA FW.
But this FW setup led to alter the vortices towards the back of the car which means a weeker floor sealing thus lower and inconsistent diffuser DF levels ...

In conclusion: they need a new front wing, which requires time, money, crash tests and so forth ... but what`s happening if they already spent their 2 tokens allowed by regs?

[atanatizante]

(Sorry mods for posting here. Had I got wrong feel free to change it)

2021 Pirelli F1 tyres: https://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-gb/motorsport/f1/tyres

[wesley123]

In conclusion: they need a new front wing, which requires time, money, crash tests and so forth ... but what`s happening if they already spent their 2 tokens allowed by regs?

A front wing doesn't require crash tests. A change to the crash structure would require these tests(and subsequent tokens spent)

[dans79]

So, correct me if I understood well: in order to get these 2021 tyres (being harder than 2020) working operation window, they need to add more rear DF/more AoA RW with additional rear suspension adjustments.

I was referring to this article,
https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2021 ... s-w12.html

There is also another problem that plagues the Brackley team . Thanks to our precious sources we have come into possession of very interesting information. The multi-champion Mercedes team , after an accurate study on the functioning of the Pirelli compounds , would have found several discrepancies with respect to the data provided by the Italian manufacturer. This factor inevitably affected the performance of the Mercedes W12 , so much so that the engineers are intervening both at the aerodynamic and mechanical level on the German car, to try to correct and improve the performance of the car.

And then a follow up comment on the team thread.

That's been the case previously, IIRC Mclaren said a few years back the Pirelli data for the shoulder deflection didn't match up with what they saw on the car and it's why they tried to shift back and redesign their bargeboards that year.

Being harder to get and keep the tires in the operating window while an issue, isn't a major issue for teams. Teams have been dealing with that since the beginning of the Pirelli era, and thus have all become very good at getting on top of the issue.

Now if as the other poster mentions the mechanical data for the tire was potentially bad/inaccurate that's a much bigger problem. The wake off the front wheels won't be as expected, and neither will rear wheel tire squirt.

Rear tire squirt, is what the floor regs changes would have had the biggest effect on.

In conclusion: they need a new front wing, which requires time, money, crash tests and so forth ... but what`s happening if they already spent their 2 tokens allowed by regs?

A new front wing doesn't require tokens, just as new nose.

[PhillipM]

That's some serious conjecture to get to a front wing - if it's anything like the last time the deflections/shape were out from the Pirelli data then what it needs is just some work to the bargeboards, rear corner of the floor and possibly rear brake ducts.

Guess we shall see which they work on. In fact the fastest way will be to watch if they run styrofoam blocks against the tyres in practice next time out.

[dans79]

if it's anything like the last time the deflections/shape were out from the Pirelli data then what it needs is just some work to the bargeboards, rear corner of the floor and possibly rear brake ducts.

This is more along the lines of what I'm expecting.

[dans79]

This came out today.

[wowgr8]

Any word on whatever novelty was being trialled at the 2020 Abu Dhabi race? It supposedly was to do with cooling, any update on that?

[zibby43]

Really good stuff by Scarbs addressing how the interaction between the reduced-span rear brake winglets, low-rake floor, and rear tires are affecting Merc in '21.

Scarbs also adds that the scope of development here, particularly for Mercedes, will help troubleshoot this area quickly without '21 being a write-off.