Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ispano6]

I sometimes wish they wouldn't divulge so much information. Other manufacturers are going to benefit from this knowledge. But I also understand why they would show so much - they are confident in their technology and don't think it's so easy to copy.

Watching the documentary it's evident that covid-19 delaying the season and changing the regulations had a huge impact on their championship bid. Also for those who said that Red Bull Honda didn't win on merit in 70th Anniversary race, the documentary showed that they were categorically wrong. The power unit was turned up that weekend with a brand new unit coupled with Max's decision to start on the hard compound. The documentary also highlighted the nature in which Honda participates in F1, leaves and comes back to advance knowledge in power unit technology and innovation for the purposes of applying them to their road going products. My sources from Honda continue to say that hybrid power trains won't be replaced with electric vehicles outright, and that bio fuel hybrids are here to stay.

[Marty_Y]

I sometimes wish they wouldn't divulge so much information. Other manufacturers are going to benefit from this knowledge. But I also understand why they would show so much - they are confident in their technology and don't think it's so easy to copy.

Watching the documentary it's evident that covid-19 delaying the season and changing the regulations had a huge impact on their championship bid. Also for those who said that Red Bull Honda didn't win on merit in 70th Anniversary race, the documentary showed that they were categorically wrong. The power unit was turned up that weekend with a brand new unit coupled with Max's decision to start on the hard compound. The documentary also highlighted the nature in which Honda participates in F1, leaves and comes back to advance knowledge in power unit technology and innovation for the purposes of applying them to their road going products. My sources from Honda continue to say that hybrid power trains won't be replaced with electric vehicles outright, and that bio fuel hybrids are here to stay.

Max qualified 4th over a second behind Bottas, the only reason he won was because Pirelli brought softer tyre compounds and increased the pressure of them. Mercedes couldn't push because the tyres were degrading too fast which allowed max to win in a slower car.

[Zynerji]

I sometimes wish they wouldn't divulge so much information. Other manufacturers are going to benefit from this knowledge. But I also understand why they would show so much - they are confident in their technology and don't think it's so easy to copy.

Watching the documentary it's evident that covid-19 delaying the season and changing the regulations had a huge impact on their championship bid. Also for those who said that Red Bull Honda didn't win on merit in 70th Anniversary race, the documentary showed that they were categorically wrong. The power unit was turned up that weekend with a brand new unit coupled with Max's decision to start on the hard compound. The documentary also highlighted the nature in which Honda participates in F1, leaves and comes back to advance knowledge in power unit technology and innovation for the purposes of applying them to their road going products. My sources from Honda continue to say that hybrid power trains won't be replaced with electric vehicles outright, and that bio fuel hybrids are here to stay.

Max qualified 4th over a second behind Bottas, the only reason he won was because Pirelli brought softer tyre compounds and increased the pressure of them. Mercedes couldn't push because the tyres were degrading too fast which allowed max to win in a slower car.

Sounds like a very fair strategy win. Why Merc no use Hard tires?

[Marty_Y]

I sometimes wish they wouldn't divulge so much information. Other manufacturers are going to benefit from this knowledge. But I also understand why they would show so much - they are confident in their technology and don't think it's so easy to copy.

Watching the documentary it's evident that covid-19 delaying the season and changing the regulations had a huge impact on their championship bid. Also for those who said that Red Bull Honda didn't win on merit in 70th Anniversary race, the documentary showed that they were categorically wrong. The power unit was turned up that weekend with a brand new unit coupled with Max's decision to start on the hard compound. The documentary also highlighted the nature in which Honda participates in F1, leaves and comes back to advance knowledge in power unit technology and innovation for the purposes of applying them to their road going products. My sources from Honda continue to say that hybrid power trains won't be replaced with electric vehicles outright, and that bio fuel hybrids are here to stay.

Max qualified 4th over a second behind Bottas, the only reason he won was because Pirelli brought softer tyre compounds and increased the pressure of them. Mercedes couldn't push because the tyres were degrading too fast which allowed max to win in a slower car.

Sounds like a very fair strategy win. Why Merc no use Hard tires?

I'll agree it was a good strategy to use the hard tyres in Q2, but I quoted you because you said "The power unit was turned up that weekend with a brand new unit" which made no difference because it was over a second slower in qualifying and engine power had no real impact on the race, heat degradation and blistering of the pirelli tyres dictated the results.

The new Honda engine does seem very promising though,
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... t/6046330/

And it sounds like they may be able to get more out of it,
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/honda ... s/6024857/

However I believe as soon as Mercedes get on top of the new tyres and the aerodynamic changes that need to be made because of the tyres they will be clearly ahead again.

[KAIZEN]

Honda engine new camshaft position
Published on Japanese TV
Left and right are unknown.　I leave it to your analysis.
https://i.imgur.com/eUtQEk0.jpg

They are closer together which means the cams are opening the valves directly, a pneumatic demsodomic valve hybrid setup.

By narrowing the valve angle you make the pent roof flatter and can raise compression ratio. You also lower the requirement for valve reliefs on the piston crown.

Thank you for your reply.
Stop the finger follower locker,Did you change to a direct hit type?

Isn't the direct hit type of the pneumatic valve prehistoric?
Even at the time of NA V8, all modern motogps are finger follower rocker arm type.

[ispano6]

I sometimes wish they wouldn't divulge so much information. Other manufacturers are going to benefit from this knowledge. But I also understand why they would show so much - they are confident in their technology and don't think it's so easy to copy.

Watching the documentary it's evident that covid-19 delaying the season and changing the regulations had a huge impact on their championship bid. Also for those who said that Red Bull Honda didn't win on merit in 70th Anniversary race, the documentary showed that they were categorically wrong. The power unit was turned up that weekend with a brand new unit coupled with Max's decision to start on the hard compound. The documentary also highlighted the nature in which Honda participates in F1, leaves and comes back to advance knowledge in power unit technology and innovation for the purposes of applying them to their road going products. My sources from Honda continue to say that hybrid power trains won't be replaced with electric vehicles outright, and that bio fuel hybrids are here to stay.

Max qualified 4th over a second behind Bottas, the only reason he won was because Pirelli brought softer tyre compounds and increased the pressure of them. Mercedes couldn't push because the tyres were degrading too fast which allowed max to win in a slower car.

Mercedes should have qualified on hard then, why couldn't they? Besides, if you haven't watched the documentary then you wouldn't know what was said. Max chose the right tires and sacrificed his starting position, Honda gave him extra power. Everyone had the same tire choice available to them so don't give us this Mercedes couldn't push the tires excuse. Making the right tire strategy call also falls under the winning on merit category.

[godlameroso]

Honda engine new camshaft position
Published on Japanese TV
Left and right are unknown.　I leave it to your analysis.
https://i.imgur.com/eUtQEk0.jpg

They are closer together which means the cams are opening the valves directly, a pneumatic demsodomic valve hybrid setup.

By narrowing the valve angle you make the pent roof flatter and can raise compression ratio. You also lower the requirement for valve reliefs on the piston crown.

Thank you for your reply.
Stop the finger follower locker,Did you change to a direct hit type?

Isn't the direct hit type of the pneumatic valve prehistoric?
Even at the time of NA V8, all modern motogps are finger follower rocker arm type.

I guess since the revs are lower than moto gp they don't need followers. The valvetrain is rotating at half engine speed, so those cams don't see more than 6500rpm.

[Hoffman900]

A bucket lifter type valvetrain is peak velocity limited. To get more area under the lift curve, the bucket has to be larger in diameter.

A finger follower is a rocker and has its own rocker ratio, which multiplies the lobe profile. Valvetrains can be much more compact in this configuration with the same or better performance.

A Desmo. type valvetrain was a solution to poor valve spring technology at the time. That hasn’t been an issue in 20 years, short of being rpm limited (still, 600cc sportbikes rev to 15k with valvesprings and with full warranties to boot! But tiny / light valves). Indy Car and NASCAR money paved the way for a big leap in valve spring technology in the mid 2000s.

F1 and MotoGP have pneumatic “springs” which allows you to not be constrained by a wire spring design.

[godlameroso]

A bucket lifter type valvetrain is peak velocity limited. To get more area under the lift curve, the bucket has to be larger in diameter.

A finger follower is a rocker and has its own rocker ratio, which multiplies the lobe profile. Valvetrains can be much more compact in this configuration with the same or better performance.

A Desmo. type valvetrain was a solution to poor valve spring technology at the time. That hasn’t been an issue in 20 years, short of being rpm limited (still, 600cc sportbikes rev to 15k with valvesprings and with full warranties to boot! But tiny / light valves). Indy Car and NASCAR money paved the way for a big leap in valve spring technology in the mid 2000s.

F1 and MotoGP have pneumatic “springs” which allows you to not be constrained by a wire spring design.

If the cams are inboard, then the followers would also be inboard which means the angle between the valves would increase. However Honda says they narrowed the valve angle leading to a flatter pent roof shape. You cannot do that with the camshafts where they are(near the center/inboard) because then you're forced to have the rockers outboard. If the cams were outboard then you could run the followers under the cam and have the valves closer together with a flatter pent roof.

However for 2021 the cams are near the center line, as are the valve angles, thus you have no room for rockers/followers.



Here you see the cams, as indicated by the cam caps, are inboard of the rockers which are again, inboard of the valves. This limits the pent roof shape and the angle of the valves.

With this arrangement reversed you could narrow the valve angle.

[Hoffman900]

You can’t fit buckets within the space allotted from that Japanese tv image to get the performance they are getting.

What do you believe the included valve angle is then?

The Honda CBR1000RR-R has a 18* included valve angle.

The CRF450F has been a compact SOHC design forever with an outboard finger follower on the intake (and a rocker for the exhaust). This design was redesigned from 21.5* to 19.5* included angle in 2017.

The compact combustion chamber does raise compression, but the biggest change is potentially how the ports intersect the valve centerlines, and its implications on tumble flow and mass flow.

I’d also be curious to know what the cam drive looks like and the potential issues they have had when the cam gears have to be that much smaller.

[godlameroso]

You can’t fit buckets within the space allotted from that Japanese tv image to get the performance they are getting.

What do you believe the included valve angle is then?

The Honda CBR1000RR-R has a 18* included valve angle.

The CRF450F has been a compact SOHC design forever with an outboard finger follower on the intake (and a rocker for the exhaust). This design was redesigned from 21.5* to 19.5* included angle in 2017.

The compact combustion chamber does raise compression, but the biggest change is potentially how the ports intersect the valve centerlines, and its implications on tumble flow and mass flow.

Performance in what sense?

I'd reckon ~ somewhere between 13 and 14 degrees. It's not hard to have small included angles with SOHC since the rockers can be close to the cam which is exactly on the centerline of the cylinder head. The CBR1000 RR has outboard camshafts.

[Hoffman900]

You can’t fit buckets within the space allotted from that Japanese tv image to get the performance they are getting.

What do you believe the included valve angle is then?

The Honda CBR1000RR-R has a 18* included valve angle.

The CRF450F has been a compact SOHC design forever with an outboard finger follower on the intake (and a rocker for the exhaust). This design was redesigned from 21.5* to 19.5* included angle in 2017.

The compact combustion chamber does raise compression, but the biggest change is potentially how the ports intersect the valve centerlines, and its implications on tumble flow and mass flow.

Performance in what sense?

I'd reckon ~ somewhere between 13 and 14 degrees. It's not hard to have small included angles with SOHC since the rockers can be close to the cam which is exactly on the centerline of the cylinder head. The CBR1000 RR has outboard camshafts.

The bucket diameter is what dictates maximum lobe velocity. They’re just direct acting flat tappet designs.

The peak valve lift and and lift area (under the curve) would be severely hampered using this design, especially since you still have to fit the injection unit in between plus the spacing between the adjacent valves.

[godlameroso]

You can’t fit buckets within the space allotted from that Japanese tv image to get the performance they are getting.

What do you believe the included valve angle is then?

The Honda CBR1000RR-R has a 18* included valve angle.

The CRF450F has been a compact SOHC design forever with an outboard finger follower on the intake (and a rocker for the exhaust). This design was redesigned from 21.5* to 19.5* included angle in 2017.

The compact combustion chamber does raise compression, but the biggest change is potentially how the ports intersect the valve centerlines, and its implications on tumble flow and mass flow.

Performance in what sense?

I'd reckon ~ somewhere between 13 and 14 degrees. It's not hard to have small included angles with SOHC since the rockers can be close to the cam which is exactly on the centerline of the cylinder head. The CBR1000 RR has outboard camshafts.

The bucket diameter is what dictates maximum lobe velocity. They’re just direct acting flat tappet designs.

The peak valve lift and and lift area (under the curve) would be severely hampered using this design, especially since you still have to fit the injection unit in between plus the spacing between the adjacent valves.

Is that what Honda uses in the F1?

As a somewhat related question, who were the first to use roller lifters?

[godlameroso]

This picture is really telling, because that's half of the camshaft width. Granted we don't know how tall the cylinder head itself is, however that is the valve cylinder head cover. The cylinder head itself tends to be roughly the same height as the cover itself.

The cylinder bore is 80 mm, so either side of the actual cylinder head, 80mm will be taken up by the combustion chamber. Meaning the cylinder head is as wide as that cover is, because why would you make your cylinder head wider than the cover?

If the cams are that close together maybe there's a pivoting rocker in between them.

One thing that's very apparent in this image is how much stiffer and stronger the mounting points are on the new engine. That has to help chassis rigidity, particularly at the rear end.

[Zynerji]

https://i.imgur.com/E6JE2Xp.jpg

This picture is really telling, because that's half of the camshaft width. Granted we don't know how tall the cylinder head itself is, however that is the valve cylinder head cover. The cylinder head itself tends to be roughly the same height as the cover itself.

The cylinder bore is 80 mm, so either side of the actual cylinder head, 80mm will be taken up by the combustion chamber. Meaning the cylinder head is as wide as that cover is, because why would you make your cylinder head wider than the cover?

If the cams are that close together maybe there's a pivoting rocker in between them.

One thing that's very apparent in this image is how much stiffer and stronger the mounting points are on the new engine. That has to help chassis rigidity, particularly at the rear end.

I believe Mario Teissens BMW paper specifically mentions the chassis rigidity of the engine. He speaks as if they found a certain amount of flex was actually desirable over an ultra stiff design.