Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[dren]

What do we think is the meaning of TExL and TExR? Temperature of gas entering the turbine? Why would they be that different? Do we think that they run different combustion parameters on each bank because that gains them something?

The graphs on the bottom (except for the track map) show TExhaustL & R, and the trend line definitely shows a substantial difference between the two almost the entire lap.

So definitely something. One bank has a "gas generation" bias, the other a mechanical power one? What do you think? Take a wild guess

It seems odd there would be a delta during the entire lap. The turbine is twin scroll, so maybe it plays into that, or it might be cylinder deactivation?

[Craigy]

The graphs on the bottom (except for the track map) show TExhaustL & R, and the trend line definitely shows a substantial difference between the two almost the entire lap.

So definitely something. One bank has a "gas generation" bias, the other a mechanical power one? What do you think? Take a wild guess

It seems odd there would be a delta during the entire lap. The turbine is twin scroll, so maybe it plays into that, or it might be cylinder deactivation?

The fuel temperatures appear to be different for the left and right too (TFuelL and R).

[hurril]

The graphs on the bottom (except for the track map) show TExhaustL & R, and the trend line definitely shows a substantial difference between the two almost the entire lap.

So definitely something. One bank has a "gas generation" bias, the other a mechanical power one? What do you think? Take a wild guess

It seems odd there would be a delta during the entire lap. The turbine is twin scroll, so maybe it plays into that, or it might be cylinder deactivation?

I just hope some Honda engineer looks at this and giggles internally "Look at those poor children."

[gruntguru]

1.22kg of fuel per lap at Barcelona. That comes out to around 80kg of fuel. The other screen is at 1.36. So around 90kg.

2.34kg over 2 laps.

66 laps and 110kg available, this means teams can roughly underfuel by ~20-30kg? Why would you though?

I understand it makes more sense when the cars are ~500kg, but we're a long way off from that. These cars are like 750kg now, and with 90kg of fuel you're at 840kg. At 840kg, an extra 20 will make a much smaller difference than 580kg wet with driver.

Lap times are more sensitive to weight than any other variable. 20kg or about 2.5% weight reduction will improve lap times far more than 2.5% power increase.

EDITS in RED

[godlameroso]

Ain't 20kg about 2% of 840(total car mass with fuel)

My bodyweight fluctuates more percentage than that daily.

[Craigy]

Ain't 20kg about 2% of 840(total car mass with fuel)

My bodyweight fluctuates more percentage than that daily.

2.3% more hp on a 1000hp engine is 23hp. That's likely a multi-season gain these days.

[godlameroso]

Ain't 20kg about 2% of 840(total car mass with fuel)

My bodyweight fluctuates more percentage than that daily.

2.3% more hp on a 1000hp engine is 23hp. That's likely a multi-season gain these days.

That's assuming a 2.3% difference in mass is worth 23hp, but what if that 2.3% extra mass gives you an extra 50hp for however long it takes you to burn that amount? Then you'd have a net 27hp gain over someone who only fueled just enough to finish. That 50hp can be from not having to turn down the engine, less lift and coast, more electrical energy harvesting.

At the end of the day if you're going to burn most of the fuel, you'll be just as fast as the guys who only fueled to make the race, but you'll have more options. If you have a pace advantage it opens even more options.

[Zynerji]

Ain't 20kg about 2% of 840(total car mass with fuel)

My bodyweight fluctuates more percentage than that daily.

2.3% more hp on a 1000hp engine is 23hp. That's likely a multi-season gain these days.

That's assuming a 2.3% difference in mass is worth 23hp, but what if that 2.3% extra mass gives you an extra 50hp for however long it takes you to burn that amount? Then you'd have a net 27hp gain over someone who only fueled just enough to finish. That 50hp can be from not having to turn down the engine, less lift and coast, more electrical energy harvesting.

At the end of the day if you're going to burn most of the fuel, you'll be just as fast as the guys who only fueled to make the race, but you'll have more options. If you have a pace advantage it opens even more options.

Wouldn't the extra weight, and harsher braking/accelerating just destroy the tyres anyway?

[godlameroso]

2.3% more hp on a 1000hp engine is 23hp. That's likely a multi-season gain these days.

That's assuming a 2.3% difference in mass is worth 23hp, but what if that 2.3% extra mass gives you an extra 50hp for however long it takes you to burn that amount? Then you'd have a net 27hp gain over someone who only fueled just enough to finish. That 50hp can be from not having to turn down the engine, less lift and coast, more electrical energy harvesting.

At the end of the day if you're going to burn most of the fuel, you'll be just as fast as the guys who only fueled to make the race, but you'll have more options. If you have a pace advantage it opens even more options.

Wouldn't the extra weight, and harsher braking/accelerating just destroy the tyres anyway?

No, not really, destroying or preserving tires is mostly due to driving style. 2.3% extra mass is nothing compared to the aero loads these tires already see. Pirelli deliberately designs tires that are only good for 150km max. Most road tires take 500km just to break in.

[trinidefender]

If I remember correctly 10kg is estimated to be about 0.1 seconds lap time but don't quote me on that.

Secondly and also something else to consider. If they design a car with a tank that can only hold 90kg of fuel Vs 110kg then there is a large packaging benefit.

Average fuel weight of gasoline is 0.71kg to 0.77kg a litre. Let's take the most conservative number of 0.77kg/L to make the packaging savings the smallest.

20kg/0.77kg/L = ~26 litres or 2600 cubic centimetres of space. Measure it out and you'll realise how much of a packaging advantage designing a car with a 90kg tank will have over a car with a 110kg tank.

[godlameroso]

If I remember correctly 10kg is estimated to be about 0.1 seconds lap time but don't quote me on that.

Secondly and also something else to consider. If they design a car with a tank that can only hold 90kg of fuel Vs 110kg then there is a large packaging benefit.

Average fuel weight of gasoline is 0.71kg to 0.77kg a litre. Let's take the most conservative number of 0.77kg/L to make the packaging savings the smallest.

20kg/0.77kg/L = ~26 litres or 2600 cubic centimetres of space. Measure it out and you'll realise how much of a packaging advantage designing a car with a 90kg tank will have over a car with a 110kg tank.

Is it really a problem with limousine wheelbase? Everything in motorsport is a compromise. I would rather put in all the fuel, and design the car that way. It gives you a better race car than if you only just fuel. It gives you more options, particularly late race safety cars while others are saving fuel, you're on fresh tires with plenty of fuel to burn.

I would rather have options at the expense of a little performance, I as a driver would instantly say I can make the difference. I'll take a car that qualifies 3rd but has race winning pace, vs a car that can qualify at the front but can't react to changes.

That's just a personal preference, I cannot speak for anyone else.

[PhillipM]

Yes, it's space right in the middle of the car where you're trying to pack coolers, intakes and oil tanks, it's the most vital place, tbfh. Especially if you push the engine forwards a little to clear up space around the rear of the cokebottle.

[godlameroso]

Yes, it's space right in the middle of the car where you're trying to pack coolers, intakes and oil tanks, it's the most vital place, tbfh. Especially if you push the engine forwards a little to clear up space around the rear of the cokebottle.

Or you spend the big bux like Mercedes and make a longer car and a tidier transmission. Or you do like Honda and make the power unit more compact which gives you more space for the fuel tank. This is because the Red Bull transmission is so compact and advanced.

[PhillipM]

And even then, moving the engine forwards and extending the transmission still gives you better packaging at the rear because the exhaust manifold blockage has been shifted forwards.

[godlameroso]

And even then, moving the engine forwards and extending the transmission still gives you better packaging at the rear because the exhaust manifold blockage has been shifted forwards.

The beauty of having a works partnership, the two partners build their components around each other. There's no doubt the packaging of the Honda engine allows a very tight bodywork, they have not made a compromise on the tank volume.