Silly season 2021-2022-2023

[PlatinumZealot]

Did Russell hurt his chances for next year, or were Toto's comments more aimed at placating Bottas?

Norris is on fire at the moment and him and Lewis seem to be having a bit of a love in.

Merc 2022: Hamilton and Norris??

Russell not delivering by dropping many chance to score points is what will hurt him. He is blisteringly quick but not level headed. If he doesnt show that maturity this year I see Valterri with at least another year at Mercedes. Russell maybe to get a pre-contract for 2023?

[MKlaus]

Did Russell hurt his chances for next year, or were Toto's comments more aimed at placating Bottas?

Norris is on fire at the moment and him and Lewis seem to be having a bit of a love in.

Merc 2022: Hamilton and Norris??

Russell not delivering by dropping many chance to score points is what will hurt him. He is blisteringly quick but not level headed. If he doesnt show that maturity this year I see Valterri with at least another year at Mercedes. Russell maybe to get a pre-contract for 2023?

marko is waiting with a cheque book. it would be toto's loss.
3 years in a mediocre team is nothing but torture for george. toto instead of scratching his head as to why bottas became a prey for a williams, is talking nonsense of why george attempted a move. bottas' underperformance is the reason for that clash.
i would be happy to see george at red bull alongside max. it would be a good insurance for red bull against max.

[Jolle]

Russell must still be in prime position for Bottas' seat. He challenged a works car with a Williams!
That he didn't take any responsibility for the crash, well.. that is more easy to work on then lack of speed, plus, it's a common drivers "flaw". They have a very hard time admitting mistakes, so strong is their self confidence.
I suspect he's got a strong slap on the wrist from Toto and when Bottas got into the office, smiling "the bos took my side", he probably got a burnout "what the hell were you doing fighting with a Williams?"

[PlatinumZealot]

Did Russell hurt his chances for next year, or were Toto's comments more aimed at placating Bottas?

Norris is on fire at the moment and him and Lewis seem to be having a bit of a love in.

Merc 2022: Hamilton and Norris??

Russell not delivering by dropping many chance to score points is what will hurt him. He is blisteringly quick but not level headed. If he doesnt show that maturity this year I see Valterri with at least another year at Mercedes. Russell maybe to get a pre-contract for 2023?

marko is waiting with a cheque book. it would be toto's loss.
3 years in a mediocre team is nothing but torture for george. toto instead of scratching his head as to why bottas became a prey for a williams, is talking nonsense of why george attempted a move. bottas' underperformance is the reason for that clash.
i would be happy to see george at red bull alongside max. it would be a good insurance for red bull against max.

Marko has Yuki and Max as his Golden boys to please his pride in the RB programme. He is in no way waiting for Russell i dont think.

For Russell, Mercedes is the ideal place. He wont have to fight with another number 1 for too long because Lewis will be gone soon, and he doesn't have to deal with Marko! So basically he will have his own team.

[MKlaus]

Russell not delivering by dropping many chance to score points is what will hurt him. He is blisteringly quick but not level headed. If he doesnt show that maturity this year I see Valterri with at least another year at Mercedes. Russell maybe to get a pre-contract for 2023?

marko is waiting with a cheque book. it would be toto's loss.
3 years in a mediocre team is nothing but torture for george. toto instead of scratching his head as to why bottas became a prey for a williams, is talking nonsense of why george attempted a move. bottas' underperformance is the reason for that clash.
i would be happy to see george at red bull alongside max. it would be a good insurance for red bull against max.

Marko has Yuki and Max as his Golden boys to please his pride in the RB programme. He is in no way waiting for Russell i dont think.

For Russell, Mercedes is the ideal place. He wont have to fight with another number 1 for too long because Lewis will be gone soon, and he doesn't have to deal with Marko! So basically he will have his own team.

so far nothing looks like yuki is the golden boy for red bull. they have already burnt their young drivers from toro rosso, starting from kvyat to gasly to albon. they didn't want to bring gasly back again, despite a strong showing last year and instead, they went for perez. they clearly have learnt their lessons that, it would be suicidal for their young guys to blood in to red bull alongside max in a hurry.

one thing is for certain, george is not going to stay at williams for another year. he shouldn't. the frustration of driving a back marker car would destroy his mindset. just like gasly is not going to wait and move to renault next (more or less certain) and like sainz who moved in search of better opportunities, george should go. if toto doesn't take him next year in mercedes, there is no guarantee he would do it in 2023.

[PlatinumZealot]

It will be a new era and the Willams surely can't be as bad as it is now can it? They stared the Hybrid era on a very good foot,
succumbing to large scale change in design philosophy of the car in 2017 (probably the worst decision ever for them) and they have been paying the price ever since. Now they do seem to have a better direction just based on the nature of the little ulgrades I saw them do from the first to the second race. The were more direct in addressing weak areas in the floor and diffuser by precise shifts in some of the elelments on the floor and the car improvement was very noiceable. I cant tell when was the last time Williams made an upgrade that worked in the first try. So overall I'm saying that staying in Williams next year might not be torture chamber as most think it will be because of the new regs and team structural changes and thus George could be willing to stay another year scoring points on the odd podium. We will see.. I put it at 50/50 depends on what Toto feels is best.

[Phil]

Speaking in light of Bottas performance, I still think it's always harder to judge the performance of the second driver as his position makes him more vulnerable to circumstances beyond his control during the race. For example; by qualifying behind Hamilton, he is more subject to be in the field, in traffic, compromised by strategy (or used to help the front runner). The front runner will always have an easier time; Better strategy, strategy protected, potentially clean air etc.

[MKlaus]

It will be a new era and the Willams surely can't be as bad as it is now can it? They stared the Hybrid era on a very good foot,
succumbing to large scale change in design philosophy of the car in 2017 (probably the worst decision ever for them) and they have been paying the price ever since. Now they do seem to have a better direction just based on the nature of the little ulgrades I saw them do from the first to the second race. The were more direct in addressing weak areas in the floor and diffuser by precise shifts in some of the elelments on the floor and the car improvement was very noiceable. I cant tell when was the last time Williams made an upgrade that worked in the first try. So overall I'm saying that staying in Williams next year might not be torture chamber as most think it will be because of the new regs and team structural changes and thus George could be willing to stay another year scoring points on the odd podium. We will see.. I put it at 50/50 depends on what Toto feels is best.

look at other way. they can offer bottas swap wiith williams. his old home and he can enjoy all the benefits you pointed. away from the pressure of competing with lewis, he might even win in williams with his rich experience, instead of podiums you mentioned in the new regulations that george may get. it would be a good opportunity to measure george against lewis. lewis will relish the challenge of fighting young gun. he can do what vettel couldn't do against a young gun. win win for all.

a honest question. why is that some of the hardcore lewis fans are against having george in mercedes? are you afraid that george would be too big a proposition for lewis to handle?

[hUirEYExbN]

a honest question. why is that some of the hardcore lewis fans are against having george in mercedes? are you afraid that george would be too big a proposition for lewis to handle?

I've never seen a Hamilton fan not want Russell there, at least on here most are in favour of it.
It would be great to see and great for Russell to share the team with Hamilton before taking over as team leader.

[MKlaus]

a honest question. why is that some of the hardcore lewis fans are against having george in mercedes? are you afraid that george would be too big a proposition for lewis to handle?

I've never seen a Hamilton fan not want Russell there, at least on here most are in favour of it.
It would be great to see and great for Russell to share the team with Hamilton before taking over as team leader.

well, the post who i was responding to and a few others on mercedes thread definitely sound like that. that's why i didn't say all lewis fans.

having achieved everything there is in f1, lewis needs a bigger challenge and what could be a bigger challenge than having one of the best young talents on the grid as a team mate and a few others like max, lando and leclerc on other teams going blazing against the him. if he wins that challenge, his stocks would skyrocket in the list if all time greats. nothing to lose.
what good it would do to have a lapdog team mate for 6th year running. he is good enough for a bigger challenge.

[Phil]

I've never seen a Hamilton fan not want Russell there, at least on here most are in favour of it.
It would be great to see and great for Russell to share the team with Hamilton before taking over as team leader.

I may be one of those who come across as not wanting Russel in the team, but I can assure you, that's not the case. I could care less either way. I'm among the Hamilton fans who are critical that Russel would do a better job than Bottas. Yes, Bottas gets a lot of crap about not being close to Hamilton, but in reality, few are or have been. To a degree, Rosberg benefited of a far more dominant era meaning that his worst performance would still comfortably put him in 2nd in pretty much every race. Bottas is also measured against one of the very best. We've seen countless times when new potential prospects have come into F1 and then faired miserably against the established driver (Stoffel, Gasly, Albon etc).

I do think Russel is good. I just don't see it as clear cut, because he hasn't competed against very strong team mates. That will always exaggerate the performance. I rate the drivers who are known quantities. In that sense, I am watching closely at Norris who is driving against Riccardo and previously against Sainz, who did well against Verstappen. Likewise, I rate Leclerc based on what he has achieved against Vettel who was also once measured against Riccardo and Kimi (who was against Alonso etc). It's not definite proof or anything, but I feel it's way more telling than simply taking performance against drivers who haven't achieved anything in F1 yet and are new.

[MKlaus]

but I feel it's way more telling than simply taking performance against drivers who haven't achieved anything in F1 yet and are new.

its arguable isn't it. a rookie was blooded into mclaren in 2007. without a great deal of achievement, ricciardo was put into red bull. same with max with just one year in f1. leclerc didn't do anything astonishing either in sauber before being drafted into ferrari. it's not necessary that a young talent has to prove against established drivers to get an opportunity in front running team. allof them have done extremely well. the best a driver has to do in lower part of the grid is to beat his team mate.
george got one difficult opportunity in mercedes and proved himself. they have his data from both williams and mercedes, which should give a good idea to the team, in the absence of results from brute fight on track.

[Phil]

I never said a young driver has to prove himself against established driver to get a seat. These opportunities either open or they don't. I was simply arguing that Russels performance has to be looked at in the proper context. He may have an incredible stat in his favor of beating every team-mate his ever raced against in F1 (apart from Bottas in that Bahrain race), but that stat is only as impressive considering who he has raced against. And sorry, I just don't rate the drivers he has achieved those stats against. Despite that, I still think he is quite a talent and at worst as good as Bottas on average. But, is that enough to deserve that seat? Is there a moral obligation by Mercedes to put someone young in that seat?

I get the sense that most arguing for Russel in that seat are simply fed up about Hamilton having the measure of his current team mate and want something new. Fair enough. I just wouldn't be surprised if swapping those two drivers would change much.

BTW: For the record, before Ferrari promoted Leclerc to Ferari - I was one of those who argued Mercedes should buy him out and put him alongside Lewis. I also argued in favor of Russel being put in the Mercedes I think from 2019 on (before Bottas got his two year deal). Either way, I don't have much problem with Bottas or his performance. He gets the job done most of the time and is by far the most consistent 2nd driver in the top 3 teams (that may change with Sainz/Leclerc pairing).

[oT v1]

I had it in my mind Hamilton would move on after this season, with presumably an 8th title, and Russell and Bottas would be the line up (Bottas at risk from other drivers not Russel)

[PlatinumZealot]

a honest question. why is that some of the hardcore lewis fans are against having george in mercedes? are you afraid that george would be too big a proposition for lewis to handle?

Lewis fans are not against George in Mercedes.

I for one am not against it but I don't think George joining in 2022 will do well for team harmony overall. I view him as another Jenson Button politcally. George loves politics. He is well spoken, he thinks he knows just the right things that people want to hear and he plays the victim game quite alot. His is now the youngest GPDA president in history too! Nothing shows political intent more than that.
Toto has expressed his disdain for these sorts of political characters in the team so George certainly would have to show he can work with Lewis (less talking and more delivering!) before Toto pulls the trigger.

The other thing is that the media will create a story of a "true British son" Vs "the Immigrant seed" as a weapon against Lewis, who has Grenadian grandparents (and is obviously not white English). This dynamic the media will push again, to create a story of George "showing Lewis up" as they did when Jenson was his teammate. It sounds like a stretch but trust me... This story will sell like hot cakes.

I don't even care about who is faster. Lewis is 36, his speed has to decline one day and George will be faster at some point. What I care about is team harmony.


PS. If you read my post history... You will see that I rate George up there with Charles and Max for raw speed.