Silly season 2021-2022-2023

[Phil]

I’ll give another one to think about; if Ferrari had gone sooner with two alphas, Vettels performance as the “leader” would have been exposed/questioned sooner.

If you only have “the one” sole predestined driver in your team, how do you know he is the true benchmark of your team? You don’t. You’ll only expose that if you have a driver in that second seat that can rival him.

My point is, if you only have the one - that driver also isnt pushed as much as if he has to compete to pull his best performance against his team mate.

Managing the drivers becomes a superficial task. You can manage then by strategy and rules of engagement, just like Mercedes has done with great success (and Ferrari too).

And again: if the two best drivers are in your team, they are not taking away points for another team. That luxury goes to the third best driver... who is, as implied, only the third best. Sure he will profit here and there, but most of the time, he’ll be coming in behind in 3rd.

If your second driver though isnt as good however (essentially what you are arguing), he’ll be coming in 3rd or 4th instead, costing you points in the WCC and WDC too (see Verstappen, Hamilton, Bottas and Perez this year).

[Jolle]

I’ll give another one to think about; if Ferrari had gone sooner with two alphas, Vettels performance as the “leader” would have been exposed/questioned sooner.

If you only have “the one” sole predestined driver in your team, how do you know he is the true benchmark of your team? You don’t. You’ll only expose that if you have a driver in that second seat that can rival him.

My point is, if you only have the one - that driver also isnt pushed as much as if he has to compete to pull his best performance against his team mate.

Managing the drivers becomes a superficial task. You can manage then by strategy and rules of engagement, just like Mercedes has done with great success (and Ferrari too).

And again: if the two best drivers are in your team, they are not taking away points for another team. That luxury goes to the third best driver... who is, as implied, only the third best. Sure he will profit here and there, but most of the time, he’ll be coming in behind in 3rd.

If your second driver though isnt as good however (essentially what you are arguing), he’ll be coming in 3rd or 4th instead, costing you points in the WCC and WDC too (see Verstappen, Hamilton, Bottas and Perez this year).

A few things. If a team needs another driver to “check” the other one, there is something wrong with your data. Even from trackside you can spot the difference between a brilliant driver or a so so, let alone when you have all the models and data.
Bringing competition into the team always hurts the development and results against other teams. Like having a football team with two strikers who don’t pass the ball to each other. As a team the best results are when you work for a common goal, the drivers are part of that one team. You want to fight the other team, not the garage next to you.
The excellent drivers have shown in the past they don’t need this pressure from within. Prost, Lauda, Senna, Mansell, Piquet, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Alonso, Hamilton all work best if the whole team is focused on their performance. Vettel is just maybe not in that class…
Those drivers by the way, more then once, left after their teams decided that a two alphas would be a good solution for their slump. Schumacher left when they signed Raikkonen, Hamilton got more or less a vote of no confidence when he got Button next to him, Senna and Prost, etc etc.

It just doesn’t work.

[Phil]

If a team needs another driver to “check” the other one, there is something wrong with your data.

I'm fairly confident it happens more often than not. The data only shows the potential. The driver is who brings that performance or potential onto the track.

Vettel was that benchmark for 4 years at Ferrari. His position, even his performance undisputed. Mistakes were not only factored to be his doing, but there were lots of arguments pointing towards the team in how they let him down as well. It took a strong team-mate (Leclerc) next to him, to show that perhaps another driver, a better driver, could have gotten more out of that package and perhaps won the championships he didn't.

Rosberg / Hamilton, even Alonso / Hamilton or Button / Hamilton highlighted every short coming of each driver. On the days that Rosberg outqualified or outraced Hamilton, you couldn't point to unfair advantages. The other driver simply did a better job (baring technical differences of course). Every time that happened - Hamilton looked at that data. How often do you think Vettel was scrutinised over his performance in the 4 years he partnered Kimi and was the quicker driver? He wasn't. He was probably even applauded for his performance - "job well done, out-qualified Kimi yet again".

That's the glory of having two good drivers. One can learn from the other. They must. If Hamilton loses out, he must learn and better himself. Ergo he becomes a better driver. Bottas has surely become a better driver for the sole reason of losing out to Hamilton race after race, but being able to learn and study the data. It's also one of the factors why Rosberg probably became so good - he was a master of studying data and replicating it, over perhaps the (more) raw talent that Hamilton brings to the table.

Sure, I get the points that having two alphas will net you a higher risk at collisions etc. Or them taking points off of each other. I'd argue that's manageable. As I said - if you have two good drivers, it weakens the position of either driver. If you only have the one, how hard is it to criticise him or his performance? Against what?

If Hamilton and Verstappen would be both driving for Mercedes or RedBull, the championship standings would probably be similar, but the WCC would be quite different between the first team and the 2nd team. We'd be likely talking about domination type performance from that one team vs. the rest.

[PlatinumZealot]

Every F1 fan's dream:

Hamilton and Verstappen at Mercedes. Finally completely same cars, FIGHT!

Don't really need to see this, to be honest. We already have Max in a superior car now, and we have seen them battle on track. Nothing else to see. I am bored, in fact. I expected a nastier fight.

[Zynerji]

Every F1 fan's dream:

Hamilton and Verstappen at Mercedes. Finally completely same cars, FIGHT!

Don't really need to see this, to be honest. We already have Max in a superior car now, and we have seen them battle on track. Nothing else to see. I am bored, in fact. I expected a nastier fight.

Fake News Fairy-tale...

[PlatinumZealot]

Hello. I need no convincing otherwise. Let's agree to disagree.

[hUirEYExbN]

Grosjean to replace Bottas this season. The "test" is a red herring to make the switch over as painless as possible.

About as likely as Merc having an all-star line-up.

[cheeRS]

Grosjean to replace Bottas this season. The "test" is a red herring to make the switch over as painless as possible.

About as likely as Merc having an all-star line-up.

In that case, might as well throw Valentino Rossi up there as a potential candidate for that coveted seat.

[tangodjango]

Every F1 fan's dream:

Hamilton and Verstappen at Mercedes. Finally completely same cars, FIGHT!

Don't really need to see this, to be honest. We already have Max in a superior car now, and we have seen them battle on track. Nothing else to see. I am bored, in fact. I expected a nastier fight.

Yes I did not expect to see the raw speed and natural talent argument settled so quickly and decisively in Hamilton's favour (not much in it but still).
Carlos Sainz puts it better than me:

"I don't analyse that much, but if anyone is doing well at the moment it's Hamilton in the Mercedes. The quality to be so fast in the race is amazing, for that he has my admiration and respect."
The Spaniard was particularly surprised with the ease with which Hamilton passed Verstappen, for example: "The truth is that I was surprised how easily he passed Verstappen and Bottas. In F1, to overtake like he did, you have to be much faster or do something special. So I think he is at a very, very high level with the Mercedes, which is not faster than the Red Bull at the moment."

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/83462/sa ... speed.html

Red Bull could well out develop Mercedes and Verstappen could well run away with the championship, but it's quite clear at this point of time who is the faster driver.

[Zynerji]

Ok, let me say this another way.

For silly season (on topic), I believe that Williams will make an offer to Hamilton of 150M/yr from 2022.

Apparently, he can win races and championships in a back-marker car, so they can save themselves the trouble of building a good car, and just hire the greatest driver in the Universe and get the next 8 straight for Williams before he retires.

Could be the 200IQ play moving forward in F1.

[dans79]

For silly season (on topic), I believe that Williams will make an offer to Hamilton of 150M/yr from 2022.

Apparently, he can win races and championships in a back-marker car, so they can save themselves the trouble of building a good car, and just hire the greatest driver in the Universe and get the next 8 straight for Williams before he retires.

He's real good (maybe the greatest), but no one is good enough to drag that car to a championship!

[MKlaus]

Every F1 fan's dream:

Hamilton and Verstappen at Mercedes. Finally completely same cars, FIGHT!

Don't really need to see this, to be honest. We already have Max in a superior car now, and we have seen them battle on track. Nothing else to see. I am bored, in fact. I expected a nastier fight.

didn't know toto wolf is on this forum.

it's clear like daylight that, the winter testing picture was another misleading episode. it was entirely possible, mercedes didn't understand their car well at that point and race after race, they are optimizing it and unlocking the inherent pace. what we saw in imola and now in portimao just confirms that. bottas said before the imola race that the car has "huge potential", which we are witnessing now. in another few races, w12 will disappear in distance. this is no different than 2018.

[Zynerji]

Every F1 fan's dream:

Hamilton and Verstappen at Mercedes. Finally completely same cars, FIGHT!

Don't really need to see this, to be honest. We already have Max in a superior car now, and we have seen them battle on track. Nothing else to see. I am bored, in fact. I expected a nastier fight.

didn't know toto wolf is on this forum.

it's clear like daylight that, the winter testing picture was another misleading episode. it was entirely possible, mercedes didn't understand their car well at that point and race after race, they are optimizing it and unlocking the inherent pace. what we saw in imola and now in portimao just confirms that. bottas said before the imola race that the car has "huge potential", which we are witnessing now. in another few races, w12 will disappear in distance. this is no different than 2018.

OR 2017, 16, 15 AND 14...

[Scorpaguy]

Ask the 20 drivers which car they would prefer to drive this year. I would bet we would see 20 Mercs.

[ringo]

From what I see from the helicopter shots.. the redbull is the better car in high speed and on the brakes, also traction.
The mercedes just has top speed over it and engine power. The mercedes also changes its behavior less when the fuel burns off and the tyres wear. The redbull is more peaky at different phases of tyre wear and fuel burn off (not saying it has poor race pace, or tyre wear) tyre wear is very good, but the car in verstappens hands maybe has a slight drop of further into the stint. We see that Perez can drive forever on the tyres.
So the cars are about equal, but the margins are fine and shift depending on temperature, tyre choice, stint duration, trach characteristics. Hamilton will have the advantage because of experience and know how.
I think he is already in Max's head with the overtake on him and Bottas; as well as when he swept max to the outside after the overtake.
The season will be very interesting. Hamilton will triumph, but not because he has the better car. He will just win on tactics, resilience, consistency. It doesn't even matter if they are equally fast. Hamilton doesn't even need raw speed to beat max; he has enough tools in his arsenal.