2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

[Just_a_fan]

Lewis Hamilton on Max Verstappen:

“I learnt a lot about Max today, perhaps more than all the other races put together,” he said. “This has been a good race in that sense.”

Asked if he wished to elaborate, Hamilton said: “No, not particularly. When you are with people on track you get to see different things up close. I learnt a lot about his car and how he uses it.”

I wonder what he meant there. He was following Max for a while so maybe he spotted something about Max's driving compared to his own. Maybe braking points, lines or where the Bull was stronger/weaker?

Source article:

https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport ... e368edab34

This is extremely interesting. It's the first time he's really ever followed him closely for several laps. He's clearly seen something that maybe he thinks he can take advantage of. Maybe a trait or a weakness.

Or it's a bluff and a very clever bit of psychology.

I think it'll be about his braking points and the lines he takes in to corners. Useful information if you're going to be wheel-to-wheel with someone. There is possibly a bit of mind games stuff too, although it's a fairly obvious attempt if so and unlikely to be too worrying to Max.

[Vasconia]

It's all in the tyres. (more specifically the medium/hard tyres) I don't think the Mercedes is a faster car over one lap, but I think it uses/preserves the tyres better than the Red Bull. Double pain when it's Hamilton in the Mercedes because he has this extraordinary ability to drive the car super fast while somehow being ultra kind to the tyres. And this is every bit as much a vital talent as being able to rag it over one lap.

This has been manifesting itself in the pattern of every race so far. The Red Bull is quicker over the first few laps and Verstappen can pull away because the tyres are in the window quicker. Then the Mercedes gets there, but slower and is able to hold onto them for longer. While the performance on the Red Bull drops away, the Mercedes is able to keep consistent pace and close up.

I think it's much closer on softs, and that Mercedes doesn't have any advantage on those, but it's better on mediums and hards, which is why we are seeing what we are seeing from qualifying to race.

I can´t disagree with this, though I still think that Mercedes has also some advantage even with the soft ones, because Verstappen was never able to increase the gap more than two seconds, if I am not wrong. This means that Lewis was just controlling the gap, he was also able to be only second behind Max several laps, which is not a little thing considering how hard is to follow the cars with this little gap.

In any case, with the first race it seemed that RB had the fastest car on qualy, which is not the case considering what we have seen so far. Mercedes is, at least, on par with them.

[El Scorchio]

The Redbull us equally as quick as Merc. Compare the second drivers and we get an idea of the true pace.
Max lost it again. Leclerc would have won the race in the same car.

Well, Perez was about 40s behind Bottas - and remember, some claim Bottas is of "Mazepin level". So if we compare the second drivers, the Mercedes clearly has the pace advantage (or Perez is performing worse than a 1-star Uber driver)

Well Perez messed his qualy up and only started 8th. Plus he's new to the team (most new drivers are being beat easily by their team mates at the moment) So there's no way Perez vs Bottas can be compared yet. We still haven't had a race where the top 2 team lock out the front 2 rows and get away 1-4 at the start. That will be interesting to see.

Also, anyone claiming Bottas is 'Mazepin level' is either an idiot or trolling and their words aren't worth the effort it takes to read them. Is he top tier? No. There are only three top tier drivers in the sport at the moment. He is comfortably in the top 7-8 drivers, along with Perez. If he wasn't, they wouldn't be employing him at Mercedes at a cost of 8 million dollars a year with titles at stake when they could get someone to drive it for half a million dollars.

[El Scorchio]

Lewis Hamilton on Max Verstappen:


I wonder what he meant there. He was following Max for a while so maybe he spotted something about Max's driving compared to his own. Maybe braking points, lines or where the Bull was stronger/weaker?

Source article:

https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport ... e368edab34

This is extremely interesting. It's the first time he's really ever followed him closely for several laps. He's clearly seen something that maybe he thinks he can take advantage of. Maybe a trait or a weakness.

Or it's a bluff and a very clever bit of psychology.

I think it'll be about his braking points and the lines he takes in to corners. Useful information if you're going to be wheel-to-wheel with someone. There is possibly a bit of mind games stuff too, although it's a fairly obvious attempt if so and unlikely to be too worrying to Max.

Yeah I agree. He's learned some tendencies. I think it's going to be similar to what Peter Windsor was saying. If there's something that stood out to him watching them drive so closely together on television, then it'll have jumped out like a fish at a barn dance to Hamilton from the view he had of it.

[NathanOlder]

Well, Perez was about 40s behind Bottas - and remember, some claim Bottas is of "Mazepin level". So if we compare the second drivers, the Mercedes clearly has the pace advantage (or Perez is performing worse than a 1-star Uber driver)

Well Perez messed his qualy up and only started 8th. Plus he's new to the team (most new drivers are being beat easily by their team mates at the moment) So there's no way Perez vs Bottas can be compared yet. We still haven't had a race where the top 2 team lock out the front 2 rows and get away 1-4 at the start. That will be interesting to see.

Also, anyone claiming Bottas is 'Mazepin level' is either an idiot or trolling and their words aren't worth the effort it takes to read them. Is he top tier? No. There are only three top tier drivers in the sport at the moment. He is comfortably in the top 7-8 drivers, along with Perez. If he wasn't, they wouldn't be employing him at Mercedes at a cost of 8 million dollars a year with titles at stake when they could get someone to drive it for half a million dollars.

Yeah I totally agree,

Drivers who I would say ARE better than Bottas are

Lewis, Max, Charles, Daniel, George, Lando, Carlos. Then you have potentially equal to Bottas the likes of Perez, Gasly, Ocon.

[El Scorchio]

It's all in the tyres. (more specifically the medium/hard tyres) I don't think the Mercedes is a faster car over one lap, but I think it uses/preserves the tyres better than the Red Bull. Double pain when it's Hamilton in the Mercedes because he has this extraordinary ability to drive the car super fast while somehow being ultra kind to the tyres. And this is every bit as much a vital talent as being able to rag it over one lap.

This has been manifesting itself in the pattern of every race so far. The Red Bull is quicker over the first few laps and Verstappen can pull away because the tyres are in the window quicker. Then the Mercedes gets there, but slower and is able to hold onto them for longer. While the performance on the Red Bull drops away, the Mercedes is able to keep consistent pace and close up.

I think it's much closer on softs, and that Mercedes doesn't have any advantage on those, but it's better on mediums and hards, which is why we are seeing what we are seeing from qualifying to race.

I can´t disagree with this, though I still think that Mercedes has also some advantage even with the soft ones, because Verstappen was never able to increase the gap more than two seconds, if I am not wrong. This means that Lewis was just controlling the gap, he was also able to be only second behind Max several laps, which is not a little thing considering how hard is to follow the cars with this little gap.

In any case, with the first race it seemed that RB had the fastest car on qualy, which is not the case considering what we have seen so far. Mercedes is, at least, on par with them.

Could be- I think it is relative performance over one lap on the softs that is making qualifying so tight. That's where I think there's really very little between the cars. Unquestionably the Red Bull was faster in qualifying in Bahrain, and I'd argue Imola and Portugal but for scruffy laps. I think it had the edge on race pace in Bahrain but not in any of the other races afterwards. In Imola it took an eternity for Mercedes to get the tyres working at the start of each stint as the Red Bull shot off down the road, but when the Mercedes got them up to temperature it had better pace as it closed down that gap in a hurry.

[El Scorchio]

Well Perez messed his qualy up and only started 8th. Plus he's new to the team (most new drivers are being beat easily by their team mates at the moment) So there's no way Perez vs Bottas can be compared yet. We still haven't had a race where the top 2 team lock out the front 2 rows and get away 1-4 at the start. That will be interesting to see.

Also, anyone claiming Bottas is 'Mazepin level' is either an idiot or trolling and their words aren't worth the effort it takes to read them. Is he top tier? No. There are only three top tier drivers in the sport at the moment. He is comfortably in the top 7-8 drivers, along with Perez. If he wasn't, they wouldn't be employing him at Mercedes at a cost of 8 million dollars a year with titles at stake when they could get someone to drive it for half a million dollars.

Yeah I totally agree,

Drivers who I would say ARE better than Bottas are

Lewis, Max, Charles, Daniel, George, Lando, Carlos. Then you have potentially equal to Bottas the likes of Perez, Gasly, Ocon.

Absolutely. Objectively that's where you'd place him. Interestingly I see him as the sort of inverse of Perez. Stronger qualifier than racer. His big weakness is not being aggressive enough (or clever/resourceful enough) to get through the pack when he needs to. I also think he's not great at dealing with pressure.

[DChemTech]

The Redbull us equally as quick as Merc. Compare the second drivers and we get an idea of the true pace.
Max lost it again. Leclerc would have won the race in the same car.

Well, Perez was about 40s behind Bottas - and remember, some claim Bottas is of "Mazepin level". So if we compare the second drivers, the Mercedes clearly has the pace advantage (or Perez is performing worse than a 1-star Uber driver)

Well Perez messed his qualy up and only started 8th. Plus he's new to the team (most new drivers are being beat easily by their team mates at the moment) So there's no way Perez vs Bottas can be compared yet. We still haven't had a race where the top 2 team lock out the front 2 rows and get away 1-4 at the start. That will be interesting to see.

Sure, that certainly factors in - I was just responding to McMika's take here. The notion that Bottas has been closer to Max than to Perez in at least the last 2 races (and possibly would have caught max in Portugal, were it not for the issue he had) invalidates his point, unless Perez is really abysmal, and I don't reckon that to be the case.
(And for the record, I don't think Bottas is Mazepin level. As I've stated elsewhere, I think Bottas does quite fine, as a second driver. But there seems to be a tendency to frame Bottas as a bad driver, which implies Verstappen is also bad or one tier above bad, if the RB and MB were indeed equal in the last 2 races. Now that's quite possibly what McMika thinks - but I don't think it's the broader opinion.)

[Just_a_fan]

I can´t disagree with this, though I still think that Mercedes has also some advantage even with the soft ones, because Verstappen was never able to increase the gap more than two seconds, if I am not wrong. This means that Lewis was just controlling the gap, he was also able to be only second behind Max several laps, which is not a little thing considering how hard is to follow the cars with this little gap.

This dynamic between them is interesting. In effect, the leader wants to get away sufficiently that he can take it easy, have a few seconds in hand for a pit stop issue, and not go so far ahead of the pack that he makes the undercut available to the guy behind. On Sunday, Lewis effectively pushed Max so that the gap behind the pair of them opened up. This then forced Red Bull's hand because the undercut became available to Mercedes. Mercedes were then able to play their two-stop strategy instead.

Had Lewis not been able to follow Max and make him drive quickly, Max would have gapped him and then sat there until his pit stop, safe in the knowledge that the pack was too close to allow a safe undercut attempt.

There was a lot more going on in the race at the front than it seems at first look.

[Just_a_fan]

Well Perez messed his qualy up and only started 8th. Plus he's new to the team (most new drivers are being beat easily by their team mates at the moment) So there's no way Perez vs Bottas can be compared yet. We still haven't had a race where the top 2 team lock out the front 2 rows and get away 1-4 at the start. That will be interesting to see.

Also, anyone claiming Bottas is 'Mazepin level' is either an idiot or trolling and their words aren't worth the effort it takes to read them. Is he top tier? No. There are only three top tier drivers in the sport at the moment. He is comfortably in the top 7-8 drivers, along with Perez. If he wasn't, they wouldn't be employing him at Mercedes at a cost of 8 million dollars a year with titles at stake when they could get someone to drive it for half a million dollars.

Yeah I totally agree,

Drivers who I would say ARE better than Bottas are

Lewis, Max, Charles, Daniel, George, Lando, Carlos. Then you have potentially equal to Bottas the likes of Perez, Gasly, Ocon.

Interesting that Alonso doesn't figure in your list. I think he's still got the skills required to perform at the top tier, albeit he's been struggling with the aftermath of his cycling accident so far this season. Ocon has done well to maximise his performance relative to Alonso, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Alonso come back at him as the season progresses.

[jjn9128]

Interesting that Alonso doesn't figure in your list. I think he's still got the skills required to perform at the top tier, albeit he's been struggling with the aftermath of his cycling accident so far this season. Ocon has done well to maximise his performance relative to Alonso, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Alonso come back at him as the season progresses.

Expect all the drivers who swapped teams/ returned to come good as the season goes on. With virtually no testing it’s probably been the hardest pre-season.

[Just_a_fan]

Interesting that Alonso doesn't figure in your list. I think he's still got the skills required to perform at the top tier, albeit he's been struggling with the aftermath of his cycling accident so far this season. Ocon has done well to maximise his performance relative to Alonso, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Alonso come back at him as the season progresses.

Expect all the drivers who swapped teams/ returned to come good as the season goes on. With virtually no testing it’s probably been the hardest pre-season.

Agreed. It will be interesting to see who does / doesn't manage to do so by season's end.

[mkay]

Well Perez messed his qualy up and only started 8th. Plus he's new to the team (most new drivers are being beat easily by their team mates at the moment) So there's no way Perez vs Bottas can be compared yet. We still haven't had a race where the top 2 team lock out the front 2 rows and get away 1-4 at the start. That will be interesting to see.

Also, anyone claiming Bottas is 'Mazepin level' is either an idiot or trolling and their words aren't worth the effort it takes to read them. Is he top tier? No. There are only three top tier drivers in the sport at the moment. He is comfortably in the top 7-8 drivers, along with Perez. If he wasn't, they wouldn't be employing him at Mercedes at a cost of 8 million dollars a year with titles at stake when they could get someone to drive it for half a million dollars.

Yeah I totally agree,

Drivers who I would say ARE better than Bottas are

Lewis, Max, Charles, Daniel, George, Lando, Carlos. Then you have potentially equal to Bottas the likes of Perez, Gasly, Ocon.

I agree with the first 3, and arguably Daniel whenever he sorts himself out in the McLaren, but the jury is still out on George and Lando.

As for Sainz, no. Unless you (over)rate Hulkenberg and Norris’ potential, he doesn’t belong in the top draw. I’d still probably take Bottas because he’s just a much better qualifier.

[Sieper]

Well, Perez was about 40s behind Bottas - and remember, some claim Bottas is of "Mazepin level". So if we compare the second drivers, the Mercedes clearly has the pace advantage (or Perez is performing worse than a 1-star Uber driver)

Well Perez messed his qualy up and only started 8th. Plus he's new to the team (most new drivers are being beat easily by their team mates at the moment) So there's no way Perez vs Bottas can be compared yet. We still haven't had a race where the top 2 team lock out the front 2 rows and get away 1-4 at the start. That will be interesting to see.

Also, anyone claiming Bottas is 'Mazepin level' is either an idiot or trolling and their words aren't worth the effort it takes to read them. Is he top tier? No. There are only three top tier drivers in the sport at the moment. He is comfortably in the top 7-8 drivers, along with Perez. If he wasn't, they wouldn't be employing him at Mercedes at a cost of 8 million dollars a year with titles at stake when they could get someone to drive it for half a million dollars.

Nobody claimed that. Somebody said Max is of Bottas level. To which it was replied, well, if you believe that then you must think Bottas is of mazepin level. So it was actually a sensible reply on a trolling effort before that. And that is now being abused to push the troll agenda.

[NathanOlder]

Also, anyone claiming Bottas is 'Mazepin level' is either an idiot or trolling and their words aren't worth the effort it takes to read them. Is he top tier? No. There are only three top tier drivers in the sport at the moment. He is comfortably in the top 7-8 drivers, along with Perez. If he wasn't, they wouldn't be employing him at Mercedes at a cost of 8 million dollars a year with titles at stake when they could get someone to drive it for half a million dollars.

Yeah I totally agree,

Drivers who I would say ARE better than Bottas are

Lewis, Max, Charles, Daniel, George, Lando, Carlos. Then you have potentially equal to Bottas the likes of Perez, Gasly, Ocon.

Interesting that Alonso doesn't figure in your list. I think he's still got the skills required to perform at the top tier, albeit he's been struggling with the aftermath of his cycling accident so far this season. Ocon has done well to maximise his performance relative to Alonso, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Alonso come back at him as the season progresses.

Yeah , at the moment I can't place Alonso, maybe by the summer we will see a clearer picture.