2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

[taperoo2k]

Well written. At least the BS that Verstappen would walk over Hamilton, even if he had a car two-tenths slower has been put to bed.

the question is, does he have a car that is just 2 tenths slower than what lewis has?
if you go back to 2018 us gp, lewis kept trying but couldn't get near to kimi after losing the position at the start. similar is the case in 2019. similarly there was a malaysian gp in 2017 (i guess?), 2017 brazil?, brazil in 2019 (before ocon's accident)? look at what happened last year in british gp 2. if the car isn't capable, even lewis couldn't do what he does the best. these are just what springs to mind. there have been many grand prixes where he couldn't come from behind because the tyres gave away.

there are many factors that have enabled lewis to become "kinder to the tyres". thin gauge and much more durable pirellis, simplified front wing and obviously, far improved mercedes suspension systems. to add to that, he is a good driver with degrading tyres. but it's a mix of all things and not just one factor.

red bull, relatively speaking, is just a qualifying car and they are not as good on race setups. once race starts and laps starts going by, that small difference in qualifying starts giving way for a bigger margin. look at fact that, lewis was able to hang in right on max's gear box for both stints, while max being in fresh air was losing grip. that shows the difference in cars, first and foremost. for so long as mercedes remains a super strong race car, it would be easy for lewis mount those attacks, regardless of how good max is. we would never know.

However good Max is, it's quite clear he's not as good as Hamilton yet.

I think when it comes down to it, Lewis has two things in his favour over Max when you put the car performance differences to one side.
1. Experience of winning multiple titles and races - This looks to be Max's first real chance of winning the title, so the pressure will be on. Lewis knows what to expect and how to pick himself up after a bad race weekend etc.
2. Tyre management skills - Lewis just seems to know how to extract the maximum performance out of the tyres whilst also preserving them to be able to stay out a few laps longer than his rivals. It's that ability that created his chance to win this race.
Both 1&2 are areas that Max can improve upon. I don't think there's much in it between Lewis and Max talent level wise.

The Mercedes seems to have the edge over the Red Bull in both race performance and race strategies, but we've yet to see Perez line up on the 1st or 2nd row of the grid. Much easier to work out how to beat your rival if his team mate is too far back to complicate matters. I do think Perez will be in the mix sooner rather than later. That's when it should get interesting between the drivers and teams.

Red Bull needs to up it's game on it's race strategies, they seem to be a bit rusty in that department when it comes to a title fight. Overall I'm quite pleased to see that we've got an actual title fight on our hands and not Mercedes running off into the distance. Will Youth vs Experience prevail ? It'll be fun to find out.

[dans79]

The Mercedes seems to have the edge over the Red Bull in both race performance and race strategies, but we've yet to see Perez line up on the 1st or 2nd row of the grid.

Are you forgetting about Imola?

[taperoo2k]

That slipped my mind, but Perez had an error strewn race that saw him finish outside the points. What we've yet to see is Perez convert a 1st of 2nd row start into a podium finish for Red Bull on a regular basis, which is what they need if they have any hope of beating Mercedes in the Constructors championship.

[Sieper]

The Mercedes seems to have the edge over the Red Bull in both race performance and race strategies, but we've yet to see Perez line up on the 1st or 2nd row of the grid.

Are you forgetting about Imola?

There Bottas failed miserably in qualy. Rather uncharacteristically. But yes, that was 2 Red Bull’s versus 1 Merc. Every other race it was the other way around.

[NathanOlder]

That slipped my mind, but Perez had an error strewn race that saw him finish outside the points. What we've yet to see is Perez convert a 1st of 2nd row start into a podium finish for Red Bull on a regular basis, which is what they need if they have any hope of beating Mercedes in the Constructors championship.

I'm looking forward to a dry race on a proper circuit (not Monaco or Baku) where the 4 top cars (44,77,33,11) all get away 1st-4th at the start, just to see their real pace and tyre strategies. I guess it is hard to get away like this with them likely to be starting on mediums with the rest right behind on softs looking to jump whoever starts P4.

[Unc1eM0nty]

[quote=dans79 post_id=970333 time=16
I think The Pirellis respond better to Lewis's style and that's why he seems to always have better deg.
[/quote]

I think it's the other way around, over the years Lewis has adapted his style to suit the Pirellis.

I remember when he first joined Mercedes Rosbergs driving coach (ha) said Lewis would struggle against him due to tire wear, then the year after that Lewis would use more fuel under the new regs, neither were true he just adapted.

He's a very different drive to 10 years ago, back then it's was raw speed, now it's finesse, subtle techniques that prolong tire life, minimum risk, he's just a points harvesting machine.

[Scorpaguy]

Today's race again showed what we all know...

1. Merc has the better car
2. Merc makes the better strategy calls
3. Bot continues to prove he is NO WHERE near Ham or Max
4. Checo will do good just to outpace Bot

What this world needs is for Ham and Max to be on the same Team and for Bot and Checo to be on the same team...that would make for loads of great racing.

Why? Why does the world need them on the same team? What sort of problem needs to answered by doing this? Very curious.

Why you ask...quite simple:

1. Ham is either the GOAT or at least a co-GOAT. Max was...maybe still is considered a prodigy. I would like to see the 2 in identical equipment to see if Max measures up. As it stands now, all we have is Ham as WDC for life and MERC as WCC until the cows come home.

2. Bot...sorry, but I want to see just how this guy measures up to a more mortal driver (as I suspect it would not be very well).

[dans79]

2. Bot...sorry, but I want to see just how this guy measures up to a more mortal driver (as I suspect it would not be very well).

He beat masa all three years they were teammates and he beat Maldonado as well though beating Maldonado wasn't hard and the 2013 Williams was garbage.

[PlatinumZealot]

Today's race again showed what we all know...

1. Merc has the better car
2. Merc makes the better strategy calls
3. Bot continues to prove he is NO WHERE near Ham or Max
4. Checo will do good just to outpace Bot

What this world needs is for Ham and Max to be on the same Team and for Bot and Checo to be on the same team...that would make for loads of great racing.

Why? Why does the world need them on the same team? What sort of problem needs to answered by doing this? Very curious.

Why you ask...quite simple:

1. Ham is either the GOAT or at least a co-GOAT. Max was...maybe still is considered a prodigy. I would like to see the 2 in identical equipment to see if Max measures up. As it stands now, all we have is Ham as WDC for life and MERC as WCC until the cows come home.

2. Bot...sorry, but I want to see just how this guy measures up to a more mortal driver (as I suspect it would not be very well).

That is quite possible to do to some extent if you have a trained eye. The things the drivers do in different situations.

For example is easily saw Vettel was not a true elite in his RedBull. I know he was fast qualifier. I could not measure that of course to say he was not. But he drove in standard ways.

Charles Leclerc is someone I saw as an elite in his Sauber days. I even made a thread about it because he was doing unnatural things in that car.

Currently, Max is quick, aggressive, clinical.. But he does not yet possess the tool set or the "moves set" of Lewis Hamilton. He is yet to evolve to be Lewis Equal. He will be one day, but not while Lewis is racing near his prime. It will be when Lewis is old and washed up. (Max at 8 years experience is maybe another two years where he will be in his prime at age 26. A very young prime. Lewis will be 38 - 39. Nothing to compare Lewis speed and reactions will be well degraded.

Battling Lewis now is good experience for Max to take on his contemooraries like Leclerc/Russel when the time comes.

[Mr.S]

Why? Why does the world need them on the same team? What sort of problem needs to answered by doing this? Very curious.

Why you ask...quite simple:

1. Ham is either the GOAT or at least a co-GOAT. Max was...maybe still is considered a prodigy. I would like to see the 2 in identical equipment to see if Max measures up. As it stands now, all we have is Ham as WDC for life and MERC as WCC until the cows come home.

2. Bot...sorry, but I want to see just how this guy measures up to a more mortal driver (as I suspect it would not be very well).

That is quite possible to do to some extent if you have a trained eye. The things the drivers do in different situations.

For example is easily saw Vettel was not a true elite in his RedBull. I know he was fast qualifier. I could not measure that of course to say he was not. But he drove in standard ways.

Charles Leclerc is someone I saw as an elite in his Sauber days. I even made a thread about it because he was doing unnatural things in that car.

Currently, Max is quick, aggressive, clinical.. But he does not yet possess the tool set or the "moves set" of Lewis Hamilton. He is yet to evolve to be Lewis Equal. He will be one day, but not while Lewis is racing near his prime. It will be when Lewis is old and washed up. (Max at 8 years experience is maybe another two years where he will be in his prime at age 26. A very young prime. Lewis will be 38 - 39. Nothing to compare Lewis speed and reactions will be well degraded.

Battling Lewis now is good experience for Max to take on his contemooraries like Leclerc/Russel when the time comes.

Lewis has lost too many times though. He isn't near MSC peak level. He lost to Button once & on points over 3 seasons, he lost as well. He lost to Rosberg. He was tied with Alonso in his rookie season. I don't know which elite driver couldn't beat his team-mate 3 times & had to scrape in multiple other seasons. MSC has a mediocre car in the 90s which he had dragged to wins - Wins he has no business winning. Lewis is still to prove himself in that way.

Max on raw speed is possibly better than Hamilton. He beat Ricciardo who is one of the fastest & every team-mate since then. He overtook Lewis on the run to Turn 1 & held on to him in an inferior race trim car & Lewis couldn't overtake him until his tyres were 40+ laps old. Granted in races like Bahrain, Hamilton showed why he won so many championships & did brilliantly to hold on to Max. But Max was better in the last race & Lewis won because of his team.

Both Max & Leclerc are prodigies & may probably beat Lewis in the same car or may lose out as Hamilton is possibly more wise, experienced & complete than these young pacy drivers. I mean even Bottas does good in qualifying most of the time. There is no substitute for experience though. Max hasn't won a Championship & Lewis has won many.

[rifrafs2kees]

Peter Windsor (peterwindsor on youtube) has some good videos on the difference in how they drive and extract performance.

Peter is mainly just parroting what Rob Wilson has said about Lewis Since the V8 days. He literally has videos where he interviews Rob in the 2012-2014 time period about Lewis style.

IMO, what he is leaving out form yesterday's video is how their two driving styles affect the tires at an engineering level, most likely because he doesn't know.

My opinion is similar to what Peter said yesterday, and keep in mind we are talking minisual differences here. to keep it simple, consider a generic 180 degree slow/medium speed turn, and that they are in identical cars in free air.

Max would breaks a little earlier but not as hard, and would take a "U" shaped trajectory through the corner. His apex speed will be higher, and his peak tire loads will be lower.

Lewis would break later and harder, and would take a "V" shaped trajectory through the corner. His apex speed will be lower, and his peak tire loads will be Higher.

The time delta between them would be nothing, but how they put heat/energy into the tires is significantly different.

Lewis is putting heat into the tires in 3 big bursts. Under breaking and initial turn in, at the apex because of the more severe direction change, and when he gets back on the power. Max is putting heat into the tires at a lower and more consistent rate. He still has 3 bursts like Lewis, but the are less severe, and the apex burst is lower than the other 2.

I think The Pirellis respond better to Lewis's style and that's why he seems to always have better deg. I'd love to get my hands on the engineering literature related to the tires, to verify my theory.

I've thought about this for a long time and here's my opinion about Lewis' driving style when following:
Early entry:
1. Effective at avoiding turbulent wake of driver ahead.
2. Allows for flatter trail braking into apex, which means more equitable load sharing between all 4 tires. Conventional line is benign on inboard tires but harsh on outboard front tire. Great for qualifying though.
3. Shortens the distance to the apex. This resulting speed advantage from the shorter distance is lost at the apex though. See next.

Apex:
1. Lower translational acceleration and perhaps lower speed, with the combined effect allowing more rotation for a given distance so that the car is pointed in the right direction early in the exit phase. Both outer tires share the loading from rotating the car; this is better than than having only one outer tire carrying the load.

Exit:
With the better rotation, you can accelerate straighter, thereby loading both rear tires more evenly. And here too he's very different from every other driver I've on the F1 circuit. This trait also helps him avoid slippery curbs in wet weather. I suspect this is a more efficient use of fuel also. Accelerating to the outer banks and while loading the outer rear to keep the car on track can't be good for tires or fuel consumption.

Portimao video demonstrates my thoughts about exit lines. Watch from 2:29 to about 2:38.

2:29s Bottas: see how wide he runs
2:30s Verstappen: run very wide as a result of wobble but even before then, he was set to run wider than Hamilton
2:31s Hamilton: Tighter exit than both ahead.
2:37 to 2:38s: Verstappen run wider than Hamilton again.

[Hoffman900]

It's hard to say from that clip as Lewis apexed a little later to get the car squared up to get the drive on Max. Most drivers do that if they aren't defending from the rear to set up a run. If you're the defending driver you're going to apex a little earlier.

This isn't taking in account the differences in cars.

Max is an early* braker / high roll speed driver that opens up the corners. Listening to Paul Tracey talk about the time Ayrton Senna tested the Indy Car, he was the same way. His brake point was about the same as Paul's, but his brake release / roll speed was a lot different. He tried to change his driving style after that to what Ayrton was doing. Lewis is more of a point and shoot driver, which has been covered elsewhere. The announcers like to say Danny Ric. is the "last of the late brakers", but by most accounts, Lewis probably has the best brake foot and feel for front end grip of anyone on the grid.

* early is a relative term.

[rifrafs2kees]

My hypothesis is about the physics behind lewis' lower tire deg. particularly through traffic. Say Max brakes earlier as Peter Windsor and most allude to. We also see that he's not an early entry driver so he's bound to be further away from the apex when he releases the brakes. He'll then have to turn sharper and load the outer front tire while traveling at a relatively higher speed than the early entry method. The point being every action that loads either side of the car heavily is detrimental to tire life. The question then is how do you keep the car flat through the most demanding portions of direction change i.e. braking and acceleration phases all while keeping the corner as short as possible. I think this is what Lewis has mastered so well.

[sosic2121]

RBR strategy lost Max the race. They should have put him on brand new Softs after Ham had pitted the second time.

They would have to pull a 1.4s pitstop for that. Hamilton gained 0.8s trough second and third sector alone. Add a few tenths trough first sector out the box and there's not way you can cover than undercut.

I was not thinking of covering the undercut, but pitting for new Softs a couple of laps after Lewis and then overtaking him on track. Then Max would have had some 15 or so laps fresher Softs than the Mediums he had before pitting. But thinking again, even if he had overtaken Hamilton with those new Softs, he probably could have not stayed in front anyway - Hamilton would have overtaken him eventually. His pace on the Mediums was crazy.

I had a similar idea, pitting for Softs with 10-15 laps to go. But while he would probably catch Hamilton, he would have necessary pace advantage to overtake him.
Graphics showed that if Max pitted on the next lap, he would come out in front of Hamilton. I assume graphics was wrong.

[NathanOlder]

Why you ask...quite simple:

1. Ham is either the GOAT or at least a co-GOAT. Max was...maybe still is considered a prodigy. I would like to see the 2 in identical equipment to see if Max measures up. As it stands now, all we have is Ham as WDC for life and MERC as WCC until the cows come home.

2. Bot...sorry, but I want to see just how this guy measures up to a more mortal driver (as I suspect it would not be very well).

That is quite possible to do to some extent if you have a trained eye. The things the drivers do in different situations.

For example is easily saw Vettel was not a true elite in his RedBull. I know he was fast qualifier. I could not measure that of course to say he was not. But he drove in standard ways.

Charles Leclerc is someone I saw as an elite in his Sauber days. I even made a thread about it because he was doing unnatural things in that car.

Currently, Max is quick, aggressive, clinical.. But he does not yet possess the tool set or the "moves set" of Lewis Hamilton. He is yet to evolve to be Lewis Equal. He will be one day, but not while Lewis is racing near his prime. It will be when Lewis is old and washed up. (Max at 8 years experience is maybe another two years where he will be in his prime at age 26. A very young prime. Lewis will be 38 - 39. Nothing to compare Lewis speed and reactions will be well degraded.

Battling Lewis now is good experience for Max to take on his contemooraries like Leclerc/Russel when the time comes.

Lewis has lost too many times though. He isn't near MSC peak level. He lost to Button once & on points over 3 seasons, he lost as well. He lost to Rosberg. He was tied with Alonso in his rookie season. I don't know which elite driver couldn't beat his team-mate 3 times & had to scrape in multiple other seasons. MSC has a mediocre car in the 90s which he had dragged to wins - Wins he has no business winning. Lewis is still to prove himself in that way.

Max on raw speed is possibly better than Hamilton. He beat Ricciardo who is one of the fastest & every team-mate since then. He overtook Lewis on the run to Turn 1 & held on to him in an inferior race trim car & Lewis couldn't overtake him until his tyres were 40+ laps old. Granted in races like Bahrain, Hamilton showed why he won so many championships & did brilliantly to hold on to Max. But Max was better in the last race & Lewis won because of his team.

Both Max & Leclerc are prodigies & may probably beat Lewis in the same car or may lose out as Hamilton is possibly more wise, experienced & complete than these young pacy drivers. I mean even Bottas does good in qualifying most of the time. There is no substitute for experience though. Max hasn't won a Championship & Lewis has won many.

You are aware that in Michaels rookie season (91) in the time he was at Benetton he was outscored by Piquet. He also lost 3 years running to Rosberg. Plus he had team mates that weren't allowed to beat him.
Also on Max, the day he stepped in to Red Bull , he was outscored by Ricciardo in 2016. He was outscored by Ricciardo in 2017, He was also outscored by Ricciardo in 2018 to the day that Ricciardo announced he was leaving. So Max lost to Ricciardo in their seasons together 2.1 and has beat Gasly and Albon since.
Lewis has beat (finished ahead) of Alonso, Rosberg, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas.


Personally I think Lewis has done far better against his team mates than Max has.

As for Michael, who was his best team mate ?

Here's a link to a topic I started on Michael vs Lewis, some good stats in there if you care to look

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29641