2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

[CRazyLemon]

the question is, does he have a car that is just 2 tenths slower than what lewis has?
if you go back to 2018 us gp, lewis kept trying but couldn't get near to kimi after losing the position at the start. similar is the case in 2019. similarly there was a malaysian gp in 2017 (i guess?), 2017 brazil?, brazil in 2019 (before ocon's accident)? look at what happened last year in british gp 2. if the car isn't capable, even lewis couldn't do what he does the best. these are just what springs to mind. there have been many grand prixes where he couldn't come from behind because the tyres gave away.

there are many factors that have enabled lewis to become "kinder to the tyres". thin gauge and much more durable pirellis, simplified front wing and obviously, far improved mercedes suspension systems. to add to that, he is a good driver with degrading tyres. but it's a mix of all things and not just one factor.

red bull, relatively speaking, is just a qualifying car and they are not as good on race setups. once race starts and laps starts going by, that small difference in qualifying starts giving way for a bigger margin. look at fact that, lewis was able to hang in right on max's gear box for both stints, while max being in fresh air was losing grip. that shows the difference in cars, first and foremost. for so long as mercedes remains a super strong race car, it would be easy for lewis mount those attacks, regardless of how good max is. we would never know.

However good Max is, it's quite clear he's not as good as Hamilton yet.

I think when it comes down to it, Lewis has two things in his favour over Max when you put the car performance differences to one side.
1. Experience of winning multiple titles and races - This looks to be Max's first real chance of winning the title, so the pressure will be on. Lewis knows what to expect and how to pick himself up after a bad race weekend etc.
2. Tyre management skills - Lewis just seems to know how to extract the maximum performance out of the tyres whilst also preserving them to be able to stay out a few laps longer than his rivals. It's that ability that created his chance to win this race.
Both 1&2 are areas that Max can improve upon. I don't think there's much in it between Lewis and Max talent level wise.

The Mercedes seems to have the edge over the Red Bull in both race performance and race strategies, but we've yet to see Perez line up on the 1st or 2nd row of the grid. Much easier to work out how to beat your rival if his team mate is too far back to complicate matters. I do think Perez will be in the mix sooner rather than later. That's when it should get interesting between the drivers and teams.

Red Bull needs to up it's game on it's race strategies, they seem to be a bit rusty in that department when it comes to a title fight. Overall I'm quite pleased to see that we've got an actual title fight on our hands and not Mercedes running off into the distance. Will Youth vs Experience prevail ? It'll be fun to find out.

There's a 3rd thing which became apparent in 2017 & 2018 and answered the question at the time of who was better between Lewis and Vettel, maximising results every Sunday and punishing his rivals when they have a bad day.

[FrukostScones]

The race was actually quite good for Circuit Catalunya.
Nice FOM production (never thoughtI would say this), I think they showed the track from very good camera angles this time. Nice showing of turn 3, 4 , 5 ,6, 7, which was normally a bit neglected or not shown how they flow together. With those beautiful helicopter shot you could really see how this track is layed out. Turn 10 changes were ok I think . Beautiful track.

[Mr.S]

That is quite possible to do to some extent if you have a trained eye. The things the drivers do in different situations.

For example is easily saw Vettel was not a true elite in his RedBull. I know he was fast qualifier. I could not measure that of course to say he was not. But he drove in standard ways.

Charles Leclerc is someone I saw as an elite in his Sauber days. I even made a thread about it because he was doing unnatural things in that car.

Currently, Max is quick, aggressive, clinical.. But he does not yet possess the tool set or the "moves set" of Lewis Hamilton. He is yet to evolve to be Lewis Equal. He will be one day, but not while Lewis is racing near his prime. It will be when Lewis is old and washed up. (Max at 8 years experience is maybe another two years where he will be in his prime at age 26. A very young prime. Lewis will be 38 - 39. Nothing to compare Lewis speed and reactions will be well degraded.

Battling Lewis now is good experience for Max to take on his contemooraries like Leclerc/Russel when the time comes.

Lewis has lost too many times though. He isn't near MSC peak level. He lost to Button once & on points over 3 seasons, he lost as well. He lost to Rosberg. He was tied with Alonso in his rookie season. I don't know which elite driver couldn't beat his team-mate 3 times & had to scrape in multiple other seasons. MSC has a mediocre car in the 90s which he had dragged to wins - Wins he has no business winning. Lewis is still to prove himself in that way.

Max on raw speed is possibly better than Hamilton. He beat Ricciardo who is one of the fastest & every team-mate since then. He overtook Lewis on the run to Turn 1 & held on to him in an inferior race trim car & Lewis couldn't overtake him until his tyres were 40+ laps old. Granted in races like Bahrain, Hamilton showed why he won so many championships & did brilliantly to hold on to Max. But Max was better in the last race & Lewis won because of his team.

Both Max & Leclerc are prodigies & may probably beat Lewis in the same car or may lose out as Hamilton is possibly more wise, experienced & complete than these young pacy drivers. I mean even Bottas does good in qualifying most of the time. There is no substitute for experience though. Max hasn't won a Championship & Lewis has won many.

You are aware that in Michaels rookie season (91) in the time he was at Benetton he was outscored by Piquet. He also lost 3 years running to Rosberg. Plus he had team mates that weren't allowed to beat him.
Also on Max, the day he stepped in to Red Bull , he was outscored by Ricciardo in 2016. He was outscored by Ricciardo in 2017, He was also outscored by Ricciardo in 2018 to the day that Ricciardo announced he was leaving. So Max lost to Ricciardo in their seasons together 2.1 and has beat Gasly and Albon since.
Lewis has beat (finished ahead) of Alonso, Rosberg, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas.


Personally I think Lewis has done far better against his team mates than Max has.

As for Michael, who was his best team mate ?

Here's a link to a topic I started on Michael vs Lewis, some good stats in there if you care to look

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29641

You can't pick & chose data as you wish & make up weird assumptions. Let us me chose the point @ the season at which Ricciardo announced he will lose is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard. Michael's 1st Full Season was 1992 & not 1991. He raced for 4-5 races for Jordan & Benetton as far as I can remember & came in the middle of the season. Are we going to now take a 4 race window & say he lost to this Team-mate. His 1st full season with pre-season in a team - He never lost ! Except his so-called comeback when he was 40+

I don't care if Max is the fastest/best. I have no horse in this race. Ricciardo - I rate him highly & he is one of the fastest. Max lost to him in his first 2 seasons & beat him in his last season. Fair & square. Max lost his 1st 2 season & since then hasn't looked back. By that logic, Hamilton got beaten by Button over points in 3 seasons & in 2011 convincingly so he is worse than Button? I love Button but Lewis all-round is possibly better especially on 1 lap pace. People evolve & Max improved & no team-mate has gotten close to him & he beat Ricciardo & every season the gap to Daniel was coming down & down.

As for Lewis vs MSC - I think it will be an insult to MSC to even have this comparison no matter how many titles Lewis wins, he is just not in that league IMO. Senna, MSC were in a different band altogether - Mika, Lewis, Alonso, etc were all amazing in their prime but a shade lower. Alonso is possibly better than Hamilton IMO.

MSC never lost to any team-mate. He was up against Massa who beat Kimi or Rubens or Irvine. You could argue he didn't have that calibre team-mate like Alonso but what he did in the 90s with a very mediocre Ferrari & an above average Benetton was incredible. He has no business winning the 1995 title or even the 1996. Even Ferrari could have lost 2 titles in the 2000-2004 era (once to BMW Williams with that monster of an engine & once to 2003 where Mclaren had the better car). His driving in the rain was unparalleled. And no driver in F1 History has done more to build the team, working with mechanics that MSC did. Ferrari were down in the dumps when he came & He, Jean, Brawn, Rory took Ferrari to unprecedented heights against a Newey powered Mclaren or a BMW powered Williams. Jean Todt was about to be fired once & MSC threatened to leave to get him to stay - That was his aura & power. And that was an incredible era - MSC was a character (sometimes shady & dubious) but a massive larger than life. Red Ferrari & Schumacher did more for the Ferrari & Formula1 brand in the last 15-20 years than anyone else. Lewis is nowhere a household name as Schumacher was then.

I don't rate his comeback @ all. He was a shadow of himself. He was 40. That is the reason why we shouldn't judge the Alonso of the old vs this Alonso. That Alonso would have eaten away Ocon. I rate Nico Britney Rosberg highly, not Lewis good, a shade below but very good none-the-less. And he still won in 2016, as did Button in the Mclaren team which was supposed to be Lewis. I guess these kind of discussions don't suit this thread & will not be nice for Lewis Fans. Lewis is a 7 time World Champion & one of the biggest legend in F1 History. And on raw pace I rate him possibly closest to Senna. But F1 is more than raw pace. The point is to not insult Lewis fans - People can have different opinions !

[sosic2121]

Lewis has beat (finished ahead) of Alonso, Rosberg, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas.

But you fail to mention that he also lost against Button and Rosberg, and that it was 109=109 against Alonso and his physiotherapist(I would rather say that both them lost that year).

Also one has remember that Lewis had a car capable of winning in every season since he joined, 15 years!

[PlatinumZealot]

He's giving Max problems sleeping at night now becaus Max is realizing how perfect you have to be to beat an on form Lewis! Haha.

As I said before I am not getting the sense of fight back from Max yet. This seems easier than Roseberg. Max is not really threatening in qualifying.

[e30ernest]

Lewis has beat (finished ahead) of Alonso, Rosberg, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas.

But you fail to mention that he also lost against Button and Rosberg, and that it was 109=109 against Alonso and his physiotherapist(I would rather say that both them lost that year).

Also one has remember that Lewis had a car capable of winning in every season since he joined, 15 years!

If I remember correctly, Lewis was very distracted on the year he lost to Button.

109=109 with Alonso, a 2x WDC vs a Rookie...

[epo]

He's giving Max problems sleeping at night now becaus Max is realizing how perfect you have to be to beat an on form Lewis! Haha.

As I said before I am not getting the sense of fight back from Max yet. This seems easier than Roseberg. Max is not really threatening in qualifying.

Yeah because Rosberg had an equal car, RB can compete on qualifying or perhaps better say could. Mercedes is by far faster in the race.

[NathanOlder]

Lewis has beat (finished ahead) of Alonso, Rosberg, Button, Kovalainen, Bottas.

But you fail to mention that he also lost against Button and Rosberg, and that it was 109=109 against Alonso and his physiotherapist(I would rather say that both them lost that year).

Also one has remember that Lewis had a car capable of winning in every season since he joined, 15 years!

When I say beat, I meant he was 2.1 up against Button, and 3.1 up against Rosberg. As for Alonso in 07, if Kimi was removed from the final standings, who would have won the title ? (clue, it wasnt Alonso)

[i70q7m7ghw]

If I remember correctly, Lewis was very distracted on the year he lost to Button.

Once you start throwing in excuses what's the point in doing such comparisons? He was beaten but Button fair and square, if Hamilton was "distracted" that year that's his problem.

[Sieper]

I haven’t seen any open and honoust discussion on these race threads. It is always agenda pushing, canceling others etc. From team LH44 you, allthough you are a big fan and are often in a very specific interpretation mode imho, irk me the least. Your tone is always a bit more accepting than some.

I am a big fan of MV33 but it should be possible, imho, to discuss races open, so really tell what you think, no window dressing. And then communicate with the “other” team. I would like that much more. Plus, it is not only Lewis VS Max, there is much more going on in each race.

[foxmulder_ms]

He beat everyone he raced against. He teamed with 3 world champions.. and beat them all. These are not opinions. They are just facts.

For all 4 races we had, RB was the faster in 3 of them. It was only in Spain Merc was faster but even in Spain RB was the faster car in qualifying and during race it was marginal. Lewis was able to follow closely because Merc/Hamilton is easy on tires not that the car was half a second faster.

[PlatinumZealot]

Guys can we have civil discussion about driver performance without my driver is better than yours? Can we come up with some sort of agreed terms for this? Maybing giving a balance view of good/bad of driver performance? We can't just say all good or all bad...

[GOAT]

Recently created an account to be able to mention what a ‘toxic’ environment this has become.

Both Max and Lewis currently need each other to reach greater heights- and we could only be thankful that we are able to witness it.

If RB is able to keep having a competitive car and Max is able to extract that little bit more, then Lewis and Mercedes both need to keep performing at their best, which would mean that this possible 8th titles is worth a hell of a lot more.

The other way around, if Max wins his 1st title, by beating Lewis and Mercedes, that would also mean a lot, perhaps even more..?

Therefor we F1 fans are in a win-win position, regardless of the outcome.

Consider that, next time, when hitting the submit button.

[bosyber]

Guys can we have civil discussion about driver performance without my driver is better than yours? Can we come up with some sort of agreed terms for this? Maybing giving a balance view of good/bad of driver performance? We can't just say all good or all bad...

Would be nice. And no 'but he/the other is in the fastest car' doesn't really tell us much, unless that solid dataset you present shows it (and it hasn't been disproven pages ago?)

[Hoffman900]

... when fans argue a driver's career more passionately than the drivers themselves.