R&D Equipment in F1

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CMSMJ1
CMSMJ1
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Re: R&D Equipment in F1

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kilcoo316 wrote:
CMSMJ1 wrote:This is what I do not understand. The inlet valves in an engine are downstream of an individual throttle body

How do the inlet valves neighbours have any bearing on this isolated little valve?

The butterfly in the body must correspond to the valve timing.

And the airbox stagnation pressure profiles over the throttle bodies will be affected by its exposure to the various throttle intake manifolds - as they are all at different pressures due to the firing sequence.

Therefore the flow into each intake manifold will be determined by the airbox pressure profile - and this flow forms pressure fluctations within the manifold - especially considering the rev range we are talking about.

This variable flow will affect the valve operation.


You could assume the valve is drawing from a constant pressure reservoir, but how accurate would that be? 98%, 99%?

Accurate enough for an F1 engine?
Kilcoo - thanks for the explanation.

I still do not agree/understand..

Why does the butterfly in the throttle body have to correspond to the valve timing? The butterfly is open a set amount or it is not. It opens this much regardless of what the valves or valve timing is doing.

The throttle is opened. The debate about whether an intake charge is sucked or pushed into the inelt tract is in another thread but regardless the charge into the one tract is independant of another inlet valve.

The inital post was about R&D tools. It is agreed that a single cylinder bench for flow testing etc is a heavily utilised tool.

Your point about whether it is good enough for 99% accuracy etc is not the point we are making..

You could say that a badly designed V8 would give you less accurate results than a well designed single cylinder test rig.. SO what do you do then?

(I still want to know, without using Ronspeak :wink: , about the airbox pressure waves as I think this is a non event that has very little bearing on the system.

You can argue the nths of a percentile...and would be rightly pedantic to do so! :o

This could run and run eh? :mrgreen:
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kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
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Re: R&D Equipment in F1

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CMSMJ1 wrote:Kilcoo - thanks for the explanation.

I still do not agree/understand..
Hey, I might not be right - engines is not my specialist area.

I know a fella who would definitely know... or he should anyway.

I'll maybe give him a shout to see what the craic is.

CMSMJ1 wrote: Why does the butterfly in the throttle body have to correspond to the valve timing?
I would imagine it would to reduce the pressure variation within the other intake manifolds. But perhaps with F1 engines revving so ludicriously high, it just wouldn't make sense to try this in which case:
CMSMJ1 wrote: The butterfly is open a set amount or it is not. It opens this much regardless of what the valves or valve timing is doing.
There will be direct pressure perturbations from the valve right back through the inlet manifold, and the butterfly to the airbox.

This will definitely affect the performance of the neighbouring inlets.
CMSMJ1 wrote: The throttle is opened. The debate about whether an intake charge is sucked or pushed into the inelt tract is in another thread but regardless the charge into the one tract is independant of another inlet valve.
I don't think it would be fully independent. I think there would be a relationship as the airbox pressure would not be a constant (due to the other valves).

CMSMJ1 wrote: The inital post was about R&D tools. It is agreed that a single cylinder bench for flow testing etc is a heavily utilised tool.

Your point about whether it is good enough for 99% accuracy etc is not the point we are making..

You could say that a badly designed V8 would give you less accurate results than a well designed single cylinder test rig.. SO what do you do then?
I'm not saying its not used - I'm questioning how useful it is - what is it used for?

As a means to reduce the test spectrum for the full dyna I would imagine?

Or as an engine design aid in itself?

CMSMJ1 wrote: (I still want to know, without using Ronspeak :wink: , about the airbox pressure waves as I think this is a non event that has very little bearing on the system.
Now that I can disagree on - the guy I would ask about it did a phd on airbox design for exactly that kind of problem.

He is now working on F1 engines - so I guess the phd was in an area of use to the team that employed him.

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safeaschuck
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Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 07:18

Re: R&D Equipment in F1

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Sorry to drag this back on topic but, isn't this an impossible question?
If you had the know how you could design an engine on the back of a fag packet.
It wouldn't win any races of course.
If you wanted to design a winning engine you would need the entire contents of an F1 engine department and the bods to run it. Plus probably a chassis to test it in, a driver and several test sessions.
There are of course many scenario's in between these two extremes.
What is the background to the question Newabb?

bidong
bidong
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 11:37

Re: R&D Equipment in F1

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well... i just read the whole conversation of the forum regarding valves, butterflies, pressure pulses... etc.

Personally, I think a forgotten R&D Equipment, no one has mentioned it in the past but I truly believe exists is a Engine Mount which could create/simulate longitudinal and lateral G's. In a Formula 1 car, G-Forces are experienced by all components and that v8 is not an exception. The inner chamber of the engine block where the engine oil should be are also designed to hold the liquids in place rather than wishy washing around not lubricating the 18000 rpm monster. Just imagine taking that quadruple apex lefter in Bahrain... the engine oil will stick to the right bank.. so I guess, they have to design it to hold it in place.

*brain fart*

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safeaschuck
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Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 07:18

Re: R&D Equipment in F1

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I see Porsche have just introduced/are introducing 'active' engine mounts on some of their production cars! ingenious.
Obviously at the moment one would imagine these simply stiffen up along with the suspension when selecting a sport setting but their is surely the possibility in future for them to 'push back'?
If this was possible you could set up ECU generated counter vibrations in the engine mounts to smooth out the engine?
I suppose you could conceivably tilt the engine too but this seems a little extravagant for collecting oil. ARF!

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Scuderia_Russ
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Re: R&D Equipment in F1

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7 post rig?
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

RacingManiac
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Re: R&D Equipment in F1

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Scuderia_Russ wrote:7 post rig?
For engine testing?

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Scuderia_Russ
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Re: R&D Equipment in F1

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Sorry. I read the title (R&D) and didn't read the first post properly.
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-