2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[godlameroso]

That wouldn't of worked, ignoring the fact that he was "pushing like mad" and he still had Lewis stuck on his gearbox.
The hards were significantly slower that's why nobody used them, if he pitted for a second time and put hard tyres on Lewis would have done the same and put mediums on and had a significant pace advantage. They also could have split the strategy with Bottas free to try something different.

Nope after pitting he committed to a one stop, and was managing his pace to Bottas. After Hamilton pitted, and he saw how fast Hamilton was going, Verstappen increased his pace by one second per lap in an attempt to match Hamilton. Had Verstappen pushed instead of managing pace for 4 or 5 laps it would have been different. He lost nearly 5 seconds trying to look after his tires just at the start. Had he committed to a two stop he would not have lost those 5 seconds to Hamilton. Or the 12 seconds towards the end of the stint from having such a long medium stint. There's at least 18 seconds worth of mistakes on Verstappen's side if you count the bad pit stop. Most of it lost trying to extend the stint on mediums. Hamilton finished 16 seconds ahead.

18-16=2 the race was closer than it looked, just the wrong calls were made. Is Merceds faster? Marginally, you don't get that close in qualifying 3 times in a row unless the car has the ultimate pace. It's not a performance difference as much as it is a difference in executing when it counts.

Verstappen - Yeah just too slow. It’s impossible to keep them behind.

Horner - That was a good effort, Max. Yeah, I don’t know what else we could have done there, but good effort.

Horner - Unfortunately, like Hungary, they had a free stop behind them, so they had all the options.

Verstappen - Yeah. It helps a lot when you are clearly just faster. So I think it doesn’t really matter if they would have done a one or a two.

Horner - Yeah, they definitely looked like they got the upper hand in race pace today.

Source https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/11/wel ... -analysis/


Well Max and Horner disagree with you, but what do they know!

Verstappen wanted first place, he didn't think about beating Hamilton. So yeah winning the race may not have been possible, but beating Hamilton was. That's where the mistake was made. You think one dimensionally and ignore the long game, and your argument reflects this.

[PlatinumZealot]

In other matters I think the RedBull should have race pace to unlock. No reason why not. We need to see Perez in clear air on the leaders strategy to really see what the drop-off is really like. Max could technically still learn from Perez in this regard, but currently he like won't be looking at Perez's data until Perez gives him a good reason to.

You keep saying this, but what is the evidence Max is worse then Perez at tire management, he did a very long stint faster then Bottas on yellow just last race.

I can't say he is worse, but he could be going down the wrong approach. He is still four years less experienced than Perez and has raced only in one team essentially so he wont know it all of course.

[dans79]

You just know though, and your knowledge trumps my opinion. Of course the Mercedes cultists that take over the RBR team thread are always right.

My opinion is as good as anyone else's, if you don't like it, too bad. That goes for the rest of you.

Well, 10 teams that have vastly more information and knowledge about the tires than any fan does, didn't run them during the race. That holds a lot of weight with most people.

[Juzh]

Nope after pitting he committed to a one stop, and was managing his pace to Bottas. After Hamilton pitted, and he saw how fast Hamilton was going, Verstappen increased his pace by one second per lap in an attempt to match Hamilton. Had Verstappen pushed instead of managing pace for 4 or 5 laps it would have been different. He lost nearly 5 seconds trying to look after his tires just at the start. Had he committed to a two stop he would not have lost those 5 seconds to Hamilton. Or the 12 seconds towards the end of the stint from having such a long medium stint. There's at least 18 seconds worth of mistakes on Verstappen's side if you count the bad pit stop. Most of it lost trying to extend the stint on mediums. Hamilton finished 16 seconds ahead.

18-16=2 the race was closer than it looked, just the wrong calls were made. Is Merceds faster? Marginally, you don't get that close in qualifying 3 times in a row unless the car has the ultimate pace. It's not a performance difference as much as it is a difference in executing when it counts.

Verstappen - Yeah just too slow. It’s impossible to keep them behind.

Horner - That was a good effort, Max. Yeah, I don’t know what else we could have done there, but good effort.

Horner - Unfortunately, like Hungary, they had a free stop behind them, so they had all the options.

Verstappen - Yeah. It helps a lot when you are clearly just faster. So I think it doesn’t really matter if they would have done a one or a two.

Horner - Yeah, they definitely looked like they got the upper hand in race pace today.

Source https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/11/wel ... -analysis/


Well Max and Horner disagree with you, but what do they know!

Verstappen wanted first place, he didn't think about beating Hamilton. So yeah winning the race may not have been possible, but beating Hamilton was. That's where the mistake was made. You think one dimensionally and ignore the long game, and your argument reflects this.

Those things are one and the same. Beating hamilton meant winning the race, unless you believe bottas had even a 1% chance of winning

[Sieper]

In other matters I think the RedBull should have race pace to unlock. No reason why not. We need to see Perez in clear air on the leaders strategy to really see what the drop-off is really like. Max could technically still learn from Perez in this regard, but currently he like won't be looking at Perez's data until Perez gives him a good reason to.

You keep saying this, but what is the evidence Max is worse then Perez at tire management, he did a very long stint faster then Bottas on yellow just last race.

I can't say he is worse, but he could be going down the wrong approach. He is still four years less experienced than Perez and has raced only in one team essentially so he wont know it all of course.

That’s true. You learn every race, every year. I don’t think, certainly here in Spain, he is doing much wrong on pace, for every given compound or stint length. Even in the very different RB12 in his very first race he could keep tires alive around here. And he is now much more experienced than he was back then.

[MKlaus]

In other matters I think the RedBull should have race pace to unlock. No reason why not. We need to see Perez in clear air on the leaders strategy to really see what the drop-off is really like. Max could technically still learn from Perez in this regard, but currently he like won't be looking at Perez's data until Perez gives him a good reason to.

You keep saying this, but what is the evidence Max is worse then Perez at tire management, he did a very long stint faster then Bottas on yellow just last race.

I can't say he is worse, but he could be going down the wrong approach. He is still four years less experienced than Perez and has raced only in one team essentially so he wont know it all of course.

perez is just too slow. period. his tyre management is nothing more than being slow. at that pace and "tyre life", he can sit pretty at 5th position. i doubt there is really anything max can learn from perez. max is the reference for that car in every aspect. so far, rb16b is behind w12 on race pace and needs improvement to compete for championship. whether it is optimization or upgrades, red bull have work to do. w12 is a fast car and winter testing was just an illusion as they didn't understand the balance. now they do and it shows what it is capable of. some mercedes and hamilton fans should stop doing toto.

[godlameroso]

Verstappen - Yeah just too slow. It’s impossible to keep them behind.

Horner - That was a good effort, Max. Yeah, I don’t know what else we could have done there, but good effort.

Horner - Unfortunately, like Hungary, they had a free stop behind them, so they had all the options.

Verstappen - Yeah. It helps a lot when you are clearly just faster. So I think it doesn’t really matter if they would have done a one or a two.

Horner - Yeah, they definitely looked like they got the upper hand in race pace today.

Source https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/11/well-discuss-what-went-wrong-hamilton-and-verstappen-team-radio-transcript-analysis/


Well Max and Horner disagree with you, but what do they know!

Verstappen wanted first place, he didn't think about beating Hamilton. So yeah winning the race may not have been possible, but beating Hamilton was. That's where the mistake was made. You think one dimensionally and ignore the long game, and your argument reflects this.

Those things are one and the same. Beating hamilton meant winning the race, unless you believe bottas had even a 1% chance of winning

Bottas doesn't race to win, you're right. Forcing Bottas to win hurts Hamilton, that's 7 points you're taking from Hamilton. If you force their hand they have to adapt to you. That is how you win, you force your opponent to adapt. In martial arts, forcing your opponent to adapt guarantees victory. Every adaptation costs you half a second in reaction time. So even if your opponent is faster if he has to adapt to you, it slows him down.

[Marty_Y]

Nope after pitting he committed to a one stop, and was managing his pace to Bottas. After Hamilton pitted, and he saw how fast Hamilton was going, Verstappen increased his pace by one second per lap in an attempt to match Hamilton. Had Verstappen pushed instead of managing pace for 4 or 5 laps it would have been different. He lost nearly 5 seconds trying to look after his tires just at the start. Had he committed to a two stop he would not have lost those 5 seconds to Hamilton. Or the 12 seconds towards the end of the stint from having such a long medium stint. There's at least 18 seconds worth of mistakes on Verstappen's side if you count the bad pit stop. Most of it lost trying to extend the stint on mediums. Hamilton finished 16 seconds ahead.

18-16=2 the race was closer than it looked, just the wrong calls were made. Is Merceds faster? Marginally, you don't get that close in qualifying 3 times in a row unless the car has the ultimate pace. It's not a performance difference as much as it is a difference in executing when it counts.

Verstappen - Yeah just too slow. It’s impossible to keep them behind.

Horner - That was a good effort, Max. Yeah, I don’t know what else we could have done there, but good effort.

Horner - Unfortunately, like Hungary, they had a free stop behind them, so they had all the options.

Verstappen - Yeah. It helps a lot when you are clearly just faster. So I think it doesn’t really matter if they would have done a one or a two.

Horner - Yeah, they definitely looked like they got the upper hand in race pace today.

Source https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/11/wel ... -analysis/


Well Max and Horner disagree with you, but what do they know!

Verstappen wanted first place, he didn't think about beating Hamilton. So yeah winning the race may not have been possible, but beating Hamilton was. That's where the mistake was made. You think one dimensionally and ignore the long game, and your argument reflects this.

As someone pointed out in a reply to you, coming first is beating Hamilton. You have "moved the goalposts" of your original argument that Max missed the opportunity to win.

The only reason I replied to your statement in the first place was because you were implying that Max and Red Bull threw away the opportunity to win by not using the hard tyres which was nonsense. Max did everything he could to maximize his results but on the day and on that circuit it favoured Mercedes. Monaco and Austria are coming up and I expect them to favour Red Bull more.

To say that I think one dimensionally is resorting to personal attacks, at least I don't live in a alternative reality like you!
I've tried to be polite and respectful and not point out the stupid statements you make, like your comments about how brakes work or your misleading statements on aerodynamics.

In future I'll not bother replying to you and getting into stupid arguments like this which must annoy other members and distract from the topic (F1) which we all enjoy.

[PlatinumZealot]

You keep saying this, but what is the evidence Max is worse then Perez at tire management, he did a very long stint faster then Bottas on yellow just last race.

I can't say he is worse, but he could be going down the wrong approach. He is still four years less experienced than Perez and has raced only in one team essentially so he wont know it all of course.

perez is just too slow. period. his tyre management is nothing more than being slow. at that pace and "tyre life", he can sit pretty at 5th position. i doubt there is really anything max can learn from perez. max is the reference for that car in every aspect. so far, rb16b is behind w12 on race pace and needs improvement to compete for championship. whether it is optimization or upgrades, red bull have work to do. w12 is a fast car and winter testing was just an illusion as they didn't understand the balance. now they do and it shows what it is capable of. some mercedes and hamilton fans should stop doing toto.

The driver in the Mercedes is also a tyre whisperer in this Hybrid formula, he wasnt always like that though, he had to learn from Jenson Button. Perez on the other hand is a natural, he has demsonstrated exceptional tyre managemwnt in all the formulas he has raced in. There is no question about it. Max will not win against the Mercedes if he is not a tyre whisperer too. It just won't be enough to be ahead after lap one. It will do him well to understand anytbing he can learn from Perez. It's just not obvious now because Perez is a bit behind in understanding his RedBull at the moment.

Marko recognizes this as well, that tyre handling contribution by the driver is immense.

Advisor Helmut Marko also sees that H****ton has some advantages. "It's not just world championship experience. I don't know exactly how many years he is ahead of Max, but in terms of tyre handling and tyre use for sure. H****ton is maybe the best in that," he stated in conversation with Motorsport-Magazin.

[godlameroso]

Verstappen - Yeah just too slow. It’s impossible to keep them behind.

Horner - That was a good effort, Max. Yeah, I don’t know what else we could have done there, but good effort.

Horner - Unfortunately, like Hungary, they had a free stop behind them, so they had all the options.

Verstappen - Yeah. It helps a lot when you are clearly just faster. So I think it doesn’t really matter if they would have done a one or a two.

Horner - Yeah, they definitely looked like they got the upper hand in race pace today.

Source https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/11/wel ... -analysis/


Well Max and Horner disagree with you, but what do they know!

Verstappen wanted first place, he didn't think about beating Hamilton. So yeah winning the race may not have been possible, but beating Hamilton was. That's where the mistake was made. You think one dimensionally and ignore the long game, and your argument reflects this.

As someone pointed out in a reply to you, coming first is beating Hamilton. You have "moved the goalposts" of your original argument that Max missed the opportunity to win.

The only reason I replied to your statement in the first place was because you were implying that Max and Red Bull threw away the opportunity to win by not using the hard tyres which was nonsense. Max did everything he could to maximize his results but on the day and on that circuit it favoured Mercedes. Monaco and Austria are coming up and I expect them to favour Red Bull more.

To say that I think one dimensionally is resorting to personal attacks, at least I don't live in a alternative reality like you!
I've tried to be polite and respectful and not point out the stupid statements you make, like your comments about how brakes work or your misleading statements on aerodynamics.

In future I'll not bother replying to you and getting into stupid arguments like this which must annoy other members and distract from the topic (F1) which we all enjoy.

Glad you are acting like the bigger man, I congratulate you.

[godlameroso]

I can't say he is worse, but he could be going down the wrong approach. He is still four years less experienced than Perez and has raced only in one team essentially so he wont know it all of course.

perez is just too slow. period. his tyre management is nothing more than being slow. at that pace and "tyre life", he can sit pretty at 5th position. i doubt there is really anything max can learn from perez. max is the reference for that car in every aspect. so far, rb16b is behind w12 on race pace and needs improvement to compete for championship. whether it is optimization or upgrades, red bull have work to do. w12 is a fast car and winter testing was just an illusion as they didn't understand the balance. now they do and it shows what it is capable of. some mercedes and hamilton fans should stop doing toto.

The driver in the Mercedes is also a tyre whisperer in this Hybrid formula, he wasnt always like that though, he had to learn from Jenson Button. Perez on the other hand is a natural, he has demsonstrated exceptional tyre managemwnt in all the formulas he has raced in. There is no question about it. Max will not win against the Mercedes if he is not a tyre whisperer too. It just won't be enough to be ahead after lap one. It will do him well to understand anytbing he can learn from Perez. It's just not obvious now because Perez is a bit behind in understanding his RedBull at the moment.

Marko recognizes this as well, that tyre handling contribution by the driver is immense.

Advisor Helmut Marko also sees that H****ton has some advantages. "It's not just world championship experience. I don't know exactly how many years he is ahead of Max, but in terms of tyre handling and tyre use for sure. H****ton is maybe the best in that," he stated in conversation with Motorsport-Magazin.

How much further can Hamilton push his stints? From the available data it seems he can get the pace of the tires maybe 2 or 3 laps more than Verstappen can. Another thing Hamilton can do well is ignore the change in balance from worn tires. Verstappen seems to struggle with that more than Hamilton does.

Both drivers can enter that "flow" state, and you see it in the lap times, they match each other beautifully every now and then. Istanbul showed they are so incredibly close, Hamilton was managing Verstappen at 5 seconds, but it wasn't easy, Hamilton was giving it everything he had. One thing I will say Hamilton is EARNING that paycheck on track, I will NOT deny that.

I imagine that Hamilton through experience has created a more detailed map of the tire behavior in his brain than Verstappen has. He has a better statistical reference(experience) to operate unconsciously in.

So it's Verstappen that has to change, adapt, and improve. It's not easy to do so, change is a high conflict activity. Maybe Hamilton is more adaptable to the situation because he himself is more adaptable, he's had to go through harder adversity, he's had to adapt more than someone like Verstappen who was handed everything in life.

That's not to say that Verstappen can't adapt and improve, however adapting and improving is a very high self conflict activity. If a person is the result of their habits, then how does one form new habits? The same way you become more physically flexible, or stronger, you have to rip and tear your mind and let it form anew. You need new thoughts, new feelings, new mindset, but to get that mindset, you have to work for it.

[MKlaus]

The driver in the Mercedes is also a tyre whisperer in this Hybrid formula, he wasnt always like that though, he had to learn from Jenson Button. Perez on the other hand is a natural, he has demsonstrated exceptional tyre managemwnt in all the formulas he has raced in. There is no question about it. Max will not win against the Mercedes if he is not a tyre whisperer too. It just won't be enough to be ahead after lap one. It will do him well to understand anytbing he can learn from Perez. It's just not obvious now because Perez is a bit behind in understanding his RedBull at the moment.

Marko recognizes this as well, that tyre handling contribution by the driver is immense.

Advisor Helmut Marko also sees that H****ton has some advantages. "It's not just world championship experience. I don't know exactly how many years he is ahead of Max, but in terms of tyre handling and tyre use for sure. H****ton is maybe the best in that," he stated in conversation with Motorsport-Magazin.

Tyre whisperer in Hybrid era? I don't think so.
if you go back to 2018 us gp, lewis kept trying but couldn't get near to kimi after losing the position at the start. similar is the case in 2019. similarly there was a malaysian gp in 2017 (i guess?) where he was an easy meat for Max, 2017 brazil?, brazil in 2019 (before ocon's accident)? 2018 canada? look at what happened last year in british gp 2. if the car isn't capable, even lewis couldn't do what he does the best. these are just what springs to mind. there have been many grand prixes where he couldn't come from behind because the tyres gave away. there was no "whispering" there!

there are many factors that have enabled lewis to become "kinder to the tyres". thin gauge and much more durable pirellis, simplified front wing and obviously, far improved mercedes suspension systems. to add to that, he is a good driver with degrading tyres. but it's a mix of all things and not just one factor.

you should stop this "learnt from button" nonsense once and for all. back then, lewis too immature and hot headed to learn anything from his team mates. he simply drove with his instincts and he hated his telemetry being shared and he himself was never interested in looking through his team mate's data.

this thread by the way is red bull team thread. better stop highjacking this to make it mercedes or lewis thing. sorry guys.

[etusch]

There are factors like driver's driving style, settings, car's base characteristic etc. But my opinion is that if your car is fast your tyres go longer generally because you don't demand more from them compared to slower ones.

[PlatinumZealot]

The driver in the Mercedes is also a tyre whisperer in this Hybrid formula, he wasnt always like that though, he had to learn from Jenson Button. Perez on the other hand is a natural, he has demsonstrated exceptional tyre managemwnt in all the formulas he has raced in. There is no question about it. Max will not win against the Mercedes if he is not a tyre whisperer too. It just won't be enough to be ahead after lap one. It will do him well to understand anytbing he can learn from Perez. It's just not obvious now because Perez is a bit behind in understanding his RedBull at the moment.

Marko recognizes this as well, that tyre handling contribution by the driver is immense.

Advisor Helmut Marko also sees that H****ton has some advantages. "It's not just world championship experience. I don't know exactly how many years he is ahead of Max, but in terms of tyre handling and tyre use for sure. H****ton is maybe the best in that," he stated in conversation with Motorsport-Magazin.

Tyre whisperer in Hybrid era? I don't think so.
if you go back to 2018 us gp, lewis kept trying but couldn't get near to kimi after losing the position at the start. similar is the case in 2019. similarly there was a malaysian gp in 2017 (i guess?) where he was an easy meat for Max, 2017 brazil?, brazil in 2019 (before ocon's accident)? 2018 canada? look at what happened last year in british gp 2. if the car isn't capable, even lewis couldn't do what he does the best. these are just what springs to mind. there have been many grand prixes where he couldn't come from behind because the tyres gave away. there was no "whispering" there!

there are many factors that have enabled lewis to become "kinder to the tyres". thin gauge and much more durable pirellis, simplified front wing and obviously, far improved mercedes suspension systems. to add to that, he is a good driver with degrading tyres. but it's a mix of all things and not just one factor.

Tell that to Helmut Marko. Remember Max is the one who has to go against that guy. If all things are equal, Max needs to be better at saving his tyres, there is no denying that fact. If things are not equal, it is better that the RedBull be kinder on its tyres than the Merc.. But that will take some time.. So Max MUST make up for it. Speed alone wont cut it.

[godlameroso]

There's also the aero factor. Hamilton learned something and pretty much verified my suspicions. The vortecies shed by the bargeboards will help the trailing car follow. Look at the onboards and how Hamilton positioned his car, never directly behind Verstappen unless it was a long straight. The wide arc the RB16B has to take, makes it easier for Hamilton to stay on the vortex of the RB16 by using a V angle approach to the corners.

Look at how Verstappen took turn 10, very wide arc, Hamilton kept the corner tight. You can drive around the wake of the leading car. Funny 2021 will have cars that can follow closer than 2022 cars will because 2022 cars don't have anything to clean up the airflow spilling off the side of the car like these bargeboards can.