2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[PlatinumZealot]

There are factors like driver's driving style, settings, car's base characteristic etc. But my opinion is that if your car is fast your tyres go longer generally because you don't demand more from them compared to slower ones.

What is a faster car though? The RB is faster over a lap, but is said not to be kind to its tyres over a stint.

Talking of downforce too, the RB has more downforce which should help to keep the tyres better. But it is the whole assembly of it all, the suspension the engine the set-up.

How much should RB cut back its qualifying pace to be better over a stint? The driver must figure out the set-up and how hard he can push while still keeping the tyre life over a stint.

This is the sort of thing RedBull will be studying.

[PlatinumZealot]

There's also the aero factor. Hamilton learned something and pretty much verified my suspicions. The vortecies shed by the bargeboards will help the trailing car follow. Look at the onboards and how Hamilton positioned his car, never directly behind Verstappen unless it was a long straight. The wide arc the RB16B has to take, makes it easier for Hamilton to stay on the vortex of the RB16 by using a V angle approach to the corners.

Look at how Verstappen took turn 10, very wide arc, Hamilton kept the corner tight. You can drive around the wake of the leading car. Funny 2021 will have cars that can follow closer than 2022 cars will because 2022 cars don't have anything to clean up the airflow spilling off the side of the car like these bargeboards can.

Nope. You cant follow into corners still. There is much loss of downforce.

He was following in the typical 1 to 2 second window but there was nothing he could do Not even 7 tenths was enough to make a threat of a pass on the main striaght. H****ton's tight turns were just his way of saving tyres. note that he didnt drive it like that in Qualfiying.

The RedBull Max combo was just eating its tyres for whatever reason. SLH was able to follow with much tyre life to spare. When he came in 5 laps later he remarked his tyres were still good. Max for sure tyres were not dead, but not able to keep at that pace much longer.

I think we need to get back to few normal tracks hopefully clearn air. Sergio, Max running in the lead group and we compare drop offs over a few races. ( give sergio time to get better).

[godlameroso]

The driver in the Mercedes is also a tyre whisperer in this Hybrid formula, he wasnt always like that though, he had to learn from Jenson Button. Perez on the other hand is a natural, he has demsonstrated exceptional tyre managemwnt in all the formulas he has raced in. There is no question about it. Max will not win against the Mercedes if he is not a tyre whisperer too. It just won't be enough to be ahead after lap one. It will do him well to understand anytbing he can learn from Perez. It's just not obvious now because Perez is a bit behind in understanding his RedBull at the moment.

Marko recognizes this as well, that tyre handling contribution by the driver is immense.

Advisor Helmut Marko also sees that H****ton has some advantages. "It's not just world championship experience. I don't know exactly how many years he is ahead of Max, but in terms of tyre handling and tyre use for sure. H****ton is maybe the best in that," he stated in conversation with Motorsport-Magazin.

Tyre whisperer in Hybrid era? I don't think so.
if you go back to 2018 us gp, lewis kept trying but couldn't get near to kimi after losing the position at the start. similar is the case in 2019. similarly there was a malaysian gp in 2017 (i guess?) where he was an easy meat for Max, 2017 brazil?, brazil in 2019 (before ocon's accident)? 2018 canada? look at what happened last year in british gp 2. if the car isn't capable, even lewis couldn't do what he does the best. these are just what springs to mind. there have been many grand prixes where he couldn't come from behind because the tyres gave away. there was no "whispering" there!

there are many factors that have enabled lewis to become "kinder to the tyres". thin gauge and much more durable pirellis, simplified front wing and obviously, far improved mercedes suspension systems. to add to that, he is a good driver with degrading tyres. but it's a mix of all things and not just one factor.

you should stop this "learnt from button" nonsense once and for all. back then, lewis too immature and hot headed to learn anything from his team mates. he simply drove with his instincts and he hated his telemetry being shared and he himself was never interested in looking through his team mate's data.

this thread by the way is red bull team thread. better stop highjacking this to make it mercedes or lewis thing. sorry guys.

Don't sink to their level, be better than them. If the Mercedes fans want to invade our thread and keep non Mercedes fans out of theirs, let them. I don't want to sink to their level, and I'd like to believe we are good fans who can remain respectful.

[godlameroso]

There's also the aero factor. Hamilton learned something and pretty much verified my suspicions. The vortecies shed by the bargeboards will help the trailing car follow. Look at the onboards and how Hamilton positioned his car, never directly behind Verstappen unless it was a long straight. The wide arc the RB16B has to take, makes it easier for Hamilton to stay on the vortex of the RB16 by using a V angle approach to the corners.

Look at how Verstappen took turn 10, very wide arc, Hamilton kept the corner tight. You can drive around the wake of the leading car. Funny 2021 will have cars that can follow closer than 2022 cars will because 2022 cars don't have anything to clean up the airflow spilling off the side of the car like these bargeboards can.

Nope. You cant follow into corners still. There is much loss of downforce.

He was following in the typical 1 to 2 second window but there was nothing he could do Not even 7 tenths was enough to make a threat of a pass on the main striaght. H****ton's tight turns were just his way of saving tyres. note that he didnt drive it like that in Qualfiying.

The RedBull Max combo was just eating its tyres for whatever reason. SLH was able to follow with much tyre life to spare. When he came in 5 laps later he remarked his tyres were still good. Max for sure tyres were not dead, but not able to keep at that pace much longer.

I think we need to get back to few normal tracks hopefully clearn air. Sergio, Max running in the lead group and we compare drop offs over a few races. ( give sergio time to get better).

Agreed, France is a good barometer because the corners are similar to Barcelona, long sweeping corners that put a lot of energy in the tires. Shame the race is being brought forward, I hear Honda has some reliability refinements in the works in order to have stronger race pace, but that won't be introduced for a little while. It depends on what they find on Tsunoda's engine.

[MKlaus]

The driver in the Mercedes is also a tyre whisperer in this Hybrid formula, he wasnt always like that though, he had to learn from Jenson Button. Perez on the other hand is a natural, he has demsonstrated exceptional tyre managemwnt in all the formulas he has raced in. There is no question about it. Max will not win against the Mercedes if he is not a tyre whisperer too. It just won't be enough to be ahead after lap one. It will do him well to understand anytbing he can learn from Perez. It's just not obvious now because Perez is a bit behind in understanding his RedBull at the moment.

Marko recognizes this as well, that tyre handling contribution by the driver is immense.

Tyre whisperer in Hybrid era? I don't think so.
if you go back to 2018 us gp, lewis kept trying but couldn't get near to kimi after losing the position at the start. similar is the case in 2019. similarly there was a malaysian gp in 2017 (i guess?) where he was an easy meat for Max, 2017 brazil?, brazil in 2019 (before ocon's accident)? 2018 canada? look at what happened last year in british gp 2. if the car isn't capable, even lewis couldn't do what he does the best. these are just what springs to mind. there have been many grand prixes where he couldn't come from behind because the tyres gave away. there was no "whispering" there!

there are many factors that have enabled lewis to become "kinder to the tyres". thin gauge and much more durable pirellis, simplified front wing and obviously, far improved mercedes suspension systems. to add to that, he is a good driver with degrading tyres. but it's a mix of all things and not just one factor.

Tell that to Helmut Marko. Remember Max is the one who has to go against that guy. If all things are equal, Max needs to be better at saving his tyres, there is no denying that fact. If things are not equal, it is better that the RedBull be kinder on its tyres than the Merc.. But that will take some time.. So Max MUST make up for it. Speed alone wont cut it.

i wish marko would be posting here and then i could respond to him. but as it stands, you posted that quote, so i would hope you can convey that to him. everyone knows marko and his volatile opinions. if one car is better on tyres and the other isn't, then you can't blame the driver. i already pointed in the above post, how the mercedes driver struggled when the car wasn't good on tyres. you need to remember that, it was ferrari and red bull that were kinder on tyres in 2017 and 2018 and mercedes struggled. it was only their dominating pace that helped their drivers and when the pace went off, their drivers struggled to hold off the challenge. it's not so much about drivers, it's the car first and then the driver next. the moment a car in clean air isn't managing the tyres well and the car right behind in dirty wake is managing tyres well, it says more about car than driver.

[Wouter]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mona ... a/6510196/

It's the performance of cars through Sector 3 at the Barcelona circuit, for the low speed sequence of bends and the tight chicane pretty much mirror the demands of the streets of Monaco.

If you are quick through Sector 3 in Spain, then that's normally a pretty good sign.

So how did things stack up at the recent Spanish GP? Here's the fastest Sector 3 times for each car in qualifying.

1. Red Bull 26.295
2. Mercedes 26.400
3. Ferrari 26.580
4. Alpine 26.632
5. McLaren 26.782
6. AlphaTauri 26.827
7. Aston Martin 26.923
8. Williams 27.131
9. Alfa Romeo 27.164
10. Haas 27.311

For Red Bull, after two races where it has lost out to Mercedes, the prospects look good with its car the fastest through S3.

Sergio Perez is certainly bullish about what could be on the cards for the RB16B around the streets of Monte Carlo.

"I'm looking forward massively to Monaco, especially with this car," said the Mexican. "I think we have a shot of winning the race."

Mercedes used a high downforce rearwing in qualifying and RBR a medium DF wing.



Barcelona: "RB16B with high downforce wing to Monaco."

Interestingly, the Red Bull team tried out a new [high downforce] rear wing during free practice last weekend in Barcelona, which should allow the RB16B to generate more downforce. Probably with a view to the next race in Monaco, the team gathered some information with it before returning to the usual rear wing for the rest of the weekend, which it has already driven for the rest of the year.

https://nl.motorsport.com/f1/news/flexibele-achtervleugel-re d-bull-f1-techniek/6507007/

[langedweil]

IMHO things are not really anymore difficult than the MB is still the benchmark car on efficiency (tho the RB was closing in per the start of the year) and PU, and has therefor an overall surplus to the RB.
Max still needs to drive at 100%, whilst Lewis can settle for a little less.
That combined that with the fact that Checo wasn't around anywhere near in the last 4 GP's makes it a near impossible mission to reach for WDC this year if things stay that way. Without Per annoyingly close, Max's RB is just a ragdoll for MB. They will just give Lewis enough breathing space to deliver WDC, and move on fullscale to 2021.
This ain't about errors, saint-status or whatever; it's just a charade-act being put up eversince 2014. MB have so much left they didn't show, and only utilize when needed (to not have it possibly banned straight away).

[godlameroso]

I wonder how the 18-inch test went. Any news Slo Poke?

[b2bL44]

There's also the aero factor. Hamilton learned something and pretty much verified my suspicions. The vortecies shed by the bargeboards will help the trailing car follow. Look at the onboards and how Hamilton positioned his car, never directly behind Verstappen unless it was a long straight. The wide arc the RB16B has to take, makes it easier for Hamilton to stay on the vortex of the RB16 by using a V angle approach to the corners.

Look at how Verstappen took turn 10, very wide arc, Hamilton kept the corner tight. You can drive around the wake of the leading car. Funny 2021 will have cars that can follow closer than 2022 cars will because 2022 cars don't have anything to clean up the airflow spilling off the side of the car like these bargeboards can.

I don't understand, am confused. How can the vortices "shed" by a car in front possibly assist a car following behind? The teams have a tough task keeping the vortices accelerating and the airflow attached down the length of the car. Also the the bargeboards clean up the flow from the front wing/cape, so again, how is this helping the car behind?

[godlameroso]

There's also the aero factor. Hamilton learned something and pretty much verified my suspicions. The vortecies shed by the bargeboards will help the trailing car follow. Look at the onboards and how Hamilton positioned his car, never directly behind Verstappen unless it was a long straight. The wide arc the RB16B has to take, makes it easier for Hamilton to stay on the vortex of the RB16 by using a V angle approach to the corners.

Look at how Verstappen took turn 10, very wide arc, Hamilton kept the corner tight. You can drive around the wake of the leading car. Funny 2021 will have cars that can follow closer than 2022 cars will because 2022 cars don't have anything to clean up the airflow spilling off the side of the car like these bargeboards can.

I don't understand, am confused. How can the vortices "shed" by a car in front possibly assist a car following behind? The teams have a tough task keeping the vortices accelerating and the airflow attached down the length of the car. Also the the bargeboards clean up the flow from the front wing/cape, so again, how is this helping the car behind?

Well the vortices that are shed by the car, help that same car produce downforce, right? The y250 travels along the bargeboards increasing their effectiveness. If the y250 helps the middle and rear end of the car make downforce, and that vortex extends to the edge of the floor, it stands to reason some of that vortex is traveling down the side of the car. A following car can take advantage of this. It also constrains the wake of the car.

Furthermore you have all that bodywork by the sidepods cleaning up the airflow at either side of the car. All of that extends downstream.

[dans79]

There's also the aero factor. Hamilton learned something and pretty much verified my suspicions. The vortecies shed by the bargeboards will help the trailing car follow. Look at the onboards and how Hamilton positioned his car, never directly behind Verstappen unless it was a long straight. The wide arc the RB16B has to take, makes it easier for Hamilton to stay on the vortex of the RB16 by using a V angle approach to the corners.

Look at how Verstappen took turn 10, very wide arc, Hamilton kept the corner tight. You can drive around the wake of the leading car. Funny 2021 will have cars that can follow closer than 2022 cars will because 2022 cars don't have anything to clean up the airflow spilling off the side of the car like these bargeboards can.

I don't understand, am confused. How can the vortices "shed" by a car in front possibly assist a car following behind? The teams have a tough task keeping the vortices accelerating and the airflow attached down the length of the car. Also the the bargeboards clean up the flow from the front wing/cape, so again, how is this helping the car behind?

Well the vortices that are shed by the car, help that same car produce downforce, right? The y250 travels along the bargeboards increasing their effectiveness. If the y250 helps the middle and rear end of the car make downforce, and that vortex extends to the edge of the floor, it stands to reason some of that vortex is traveling down the side of the car. A following car can take advantage of this. It also constrains the wake of the car.

Furthermore you have all that bodywork by the sidepods cleaning up the airflow at either side of the car. All of that extends downstream.

I'm sorry, but this is not correct.

Jack Chilvers, aerodynamicist at Williams F1 Racing
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/tec ... explained/

‘DIRTY AIR’
Dirty air on the other hand occurs in the corners, where the cars are already in a grip limited condition. The lead car effectively uses up the energy of the oncoming air and leaves behind air with low total pressure, or ‘dirty air’. Due to this disruption in the onset flow, the following car has reduced aerodynamic performance. However, it is not just the pure loss in downforce that makes overtaking tricky under these conditions.

‘One of the biggest things that will upset the driver is the change in the ‘feeling’ of the car. Aerodynamically, this means the aero balance,’ explains Chilvers. A loss in aero balance can occur as disrupted onset flow will affect the front wing first and causes a significant loss in performance and efficiency.

‘Typically, the driver will drive to the aero balance set up to make them feel comfortable and have the confidence to turn into a corner. So, as the car starts to lose aero balance, the driver has to back out. And that’s why you get that hit in performance,’ says Chilvers.

[godlameroso]

Sorry but you don't understand what I'm saying



Look how stable the Red Bull is until it gets too close.

[Wouter]

.
https://www.redbull.com/int-en/redbullr ... ouncement/?

[dans79]

Sorry but you don't understand what I'm saying



Look how stable the Red Bull is until it gets too close.

actually , I understand aerodynamics pretty well. You seemed to have glanced over Chilvers important qualifier.

Dirty air on the other hand occurs in the corners, where the cars are already in a grip limited condition. The lead car

In china 2018, Max was not grip limited. He had plenty of grip, and if lewis hadn't understerred out into Max's path, he would have powered around the outside like Lewis wasn't even there.

[godlameroso]

Sorry but you don't understand what I'm saying



Look how stable the Red Bull is until it gets too close.

actually , I understand aerodynamics pretty well. You seemed to have glanced over Chilvers important qualifier.

Dirty air on the other hand occurs in the corners, where the cars are already in a grip limited condition. The lead car

In china 2018, Max was not grip limited. He had plenty of grip, and if lewis hadn't understerred out into Max's path, he would have powered around the outside like Lewis wasn't even there.

You don't understand, and you're burying yourself. Air has momentum, in physics there are these principles called inertia, and conservation of angular momentum, think a bit friend. If the car is turning left(like it is in the video), then the air is going to the right, Verstappen's car is on the right, where the air is being pushed because Hamilton's car is under yaw. If the leading car's wake reduces downforce, Verstappen should not be able to follow so closely, and yet video evidence shows he could. Until he got too close to Hamilton's car and he got a oversteer snap. Why would the car get an oversteer snap if the wake lowers downforce at the front of the car first?