2021 Mclaren F1 Team

[SmallSoldier]

yes everybody seems to believe that Lando has upped his game this year. Your first year in F1 sees the biggest gains, maybe a few tenths maybe half a second depending on how much room you had to improve. 2nd year maybe a tenth or 2. Then the law of diminishing returns set in. But 1 thing that is extremely unlikely is somehow Lando found half a second plus magically during an off season (3 months or whatever it was) with no testing allowed. It is basically almost impossible.


Show me an F1 driver with who did not switch teams in their 3rd year somehow gain half a second on his team mate who also did not switch teams and was there in their 3rd plus year together. Not leaving out the most important part, during an off season, with no testing allowed?

I will say both Lando and Carlos are very fast drivers that is not my argument.
But If Carlos had stayed at Mclaren the results would have been the same or very similar to last year. Maybe Lando gained a tenth which even that seems unlikely during an off season, (in season yes) but not half a second all of a sudden during an off season.
What seems to have happened is Ric is struggling to adapt and well off his usual pace.
Some also suggested Stroll upped his game all of a sudden. But then Vettel showed up at Monaco finally.

It’s impossible to quantify improvement in terms of “tenths”... Different cars, different setups, learnings from previous seasons, different conditions at the tracks (temperature, amount of rubber at the racing line, different tire warm up requirements, etc)... To say that Lando is X “tenths” faster than previous year is really conjecture.

What is clear is that he is more confident, not only on the car, but most importantly on himself and what he can do... That is only gained with seat time / miles behind the wheel.

I for one appreciate how he has tackled his F1 career so far, a first rookie year where instead of going for “heroics”, he took care of the car, even if that meant losing positions at the start... No point of going for every gap if your race is ruined in lap 1, making sure that he was finishing those races not only helped the team in terms of points to finish 4th that season, but also allowed him to keep growing as a driver... He probably had close to zero influence in regards to car setup while he was still learning not only what effects some changes have, also how to describe to the team what he needed from the car.

His second season saw an improvement over the first, a bit more confidence, but still cautious, which I argue also helped Mclaren finish 3rd in the standings, he had a great season and even though he was behind Carlos (probably driven by experience more than just outright speed), he held his own during the season and kept improving throughout it while still showing glimpses of great speed in Qualifying... He also managed to do quiet good at the new tracks that were included last season due to Covid (let’s keep in mind that a few of the tracks in his maiden season where probably new to him).

Throughout his first couple of seasons, he kept it outside of the barriers, rarely involved in accidents and those that did happen were mostly outside of his control, that’s one of the best attributes he brought to the team, while been consistent enough to bring home points when the car had the capability of doing so.

He is in his 3rd season and still only 21 years old, he will probably keep developing and honing his skills for at 3-4 years before he starts “peaking”, he will learn from Daniel’s experience and skills... His biggest advantage will be if he can maintain humility and learn from those his racing against and incorporate what they do great into his tool box.


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I got a few replies to this post and appreciate some good input and some good points from everybody.
The main point i made though everybody has completely misquoted and completely misunderstood.

My point is Lando over a 2 year period and 38 race weekends with Carlos seems to have improved of course. We talking 38 races, 38 qualifying sessions, and 80+ practise sessions.

And yes the most improvement in speed and laptime is achieved during the first year and second year then tapers off.
Now what i am talking about is not confidence, less crashes or anything of that sort as thing you can mature even after 15 years in this area and Lando has improved this year it seems sure. Please do not misquote me saying drivers cannot improve and mature. I am just referring to all out race pace and qualifying pace. Laptime raw pace.

That we do not see big improvements in a drivers 3rd year in F1 in the same team and environment.
Remember also Mclaren is a great fun team that made Norris feel at home from day 1. Jumps in performance could possibly be seen switching teams, or switching management if previous was terrible, or massively changing the concept of the car which you hated previously. This could see noticeable gains in lap time from EXTREME changes like this.
Nothing EXTREME has changed in the 3rd year at Mclaren everything is super stable hence my analysis.

So my point is very clear. Lando seems half a second plus quicker than Ric in race pace most races and qualifying even up to a 1 second some laps even we have seen. And some people are suggesting Lando has gained this half a second plus not RIc is struggling to find this half a second plus.

And my point is show me a driver who gained half a second plus during an off season holidaying from the 13th of Dec 2020 Ahbu Dhabi, to the 28th of March with only 3 half days in the car testing/practising.

Certain people are suggesting Lando gained more lap time (half a second plus) on a 3 month holiday then he did in 38 FULL RACE weekends over a FULL 2 year F1 (initial) period which I would estimate at say 3 tenths.

Lando is a very fast driver sure. But he did not gain more laptime on holidays relaxing then he did after 2 years and 38 full race weekends. Ric is struggling and dropped off. That is the only logical conclusion as drivers have in history struggled and dropped off swapping teams. There is evidence of this happening throughout F1 history. But zero evidence of the opposite happening with a driver gaining more speed (half a second plus) in an off season holiday period then 2 previous years (say 3 tenths). (rough estimates)

If people still believe this please show me a previous (similar) example of this happening in F1 history? And I mean has to be the similar as I have been very specific in my analysis and the exact impossible conditions that this has occurred.
As yes I say its impossible. Its never happened before and never will.

I may be missing your point and having a hard time understanding... Is your point that Lando couldn’t have made a bigger jump from in his third season compared to his improvements in the first and second season?

May very well be the case, the problem is that we can’t quantify it... You can’t say that Lando is (insert amount of tenths here) faster than previous season, simply because there is plethora of factors outside of his driving that affect lap times.

We can’t objectively quantify his improvement because:

- The MCL35M is a different car to the MCL35: Not only do the cars have different downforce levels and balance (due to the changes in the floor regulations and rear brakes), they are also using a different PU, with different power delivery, drivability, etc.

- The effect of Track Conditions on Tire Temperature: One of the key factors that determine lap time in today’s Formula 1 is how easy is to get the tires into the operating window and maintain it there, just in Monaco Mercedes underperformed because they couldn’t heat up the tires quickly enough for example.

- Overall Track Conditions: The Mclaren responds different to Wind Conditions than other cars, not really liking gusty conditions, it may suit better lower track temperatures than higher track temperatures (if they bring energy into the tires fast enough).

So, in essence, the improvement made by the team in 2021 can’t be attributed to just the driver... Has Lando made an improvement? I believe everyone agrees on that, but from there to say that he is bringing 1 more tenth a full second more to the car due to his driving is pure conjecture or speculation on our part.

Now, in regards to your point that he couldn’t have improve more over the winter compared to his 38 Full Races + Qualis + Practice laps... The reality is that the current MCL35M could suit him better than previous cars and therefore he could be in reality making a bigger jump in performance “over the winter” than he had in previous seasons... This is something that we are observing with Daniel, which I’m sure didn’t lost a lot of tenths “over the winter”, simply put his struggling to adapt to the MCL35M which at this point seems to suit Lando’s driving style more than his.

In regards to the gap between drivers, out of the last 5 races, I’ve not seeing a second gap between them under normal conditions... Daniel had more pace in Spain, not only during Qualy, but also during the race for example, Imola is hard to tell because of the changing conditions and because it’s a track that was early in the season with Daniel still adapting (“newish” track for them, a track that requires confidence in the car and variable weather conditions aren’t really helpful for someone getting used to a new car) and Monaco is a track that not only will also exacerbate any confidence in the car issues, but track position will determine your pace (or do we think that Lando - Mclaren is 40 seconds faster than Hamilton - Mercedes?)... So trying to use Monaco as a reference of pace delta is also a bit mute.

We are now entering a bit more known territory, Baku, France, Austria x 2 will give us a better idea of the gap between them and are also tracks that are a known commodity for the drivers.

Finally, in regards to your comment to show you one driver that has improved more in his third season compared to the previous two, you simply can’t compare it that way... The cars have a huge effect on driver performance, so we can’t tell how much was driver improvement or lack there off as I explain before.


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[godlameroso]

Riccardo just needs to serenade the car, he just needs to sing wind beneath my wings to it.

[e30ernest]

I think when people say a car is not suited to the driver, they tend to overestimate how much of a difference is needed to create this disparity in performance. I really think the drivers in this generation are closer to each other in terms of raw pace more than ever. If a car does not suit a driver, miniscule losses in time on certain sections of the circuit. Some of these losses also goes on a negative feedback loop (such as a lack of confidence resulting to lack of tire/brake temps).

I think when Daniel sorts out his car issues he'll be right up there with Lando. That said, I do think Lando has the overall edge in raw pace.

[SmallSoldier]

I think when people say a car is not suited to the driver, they tend to overestimate how much of a difference is needed to create this disparity in performance. I really think the drivers in this generation are closer to each other in terms of raw pace more than ever. If a car does not suit a driver, miniscule losses in time on certain sections of the circuit. Some of these losses also goes on a negative feedback loop (such as a lack of confidence resulting to lack of tire/brake temps).

I think when Daniel sorts out his car issues he'll be right up there with Lando. That said, I do think Lando has the overall edge in raw pace.

I fully agree with you... half a tenth is a very small difference in a corner, it’s applying or releasing the brakes fractionally earlier or later... In a track like Monaco with 18 turns, half a tenth per corner can compound to 9 tenths.

The challenge is also more drastic in throttle application, since it not only can make you lose on the corner itself, your dragging that delta all through the straight after it... Now, in the telemetry for Monaco, throttle application for both Daniel and Lando is almost identical all through the lap, with the biggest difference been that Daniel brakes earlier and it’s on the brakes longer than Lando to the point that they accelerate at almost the same time out of the corner, that’s why Lando has more corner speed... Unluckily the telemetry doesn’t show brake pressure, just “on-off” the brakes.


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[Mclarensenna]

It’s impossible to quantify improvement in terms of “tenths”... Different cars, different setups, learnings from previous seasons, different conditions at the tracks (temperature, amount of rubber at the racing line, different tire warm up requirements, etc)... To say that Lando is X “tenths” faster than previous year is really conjecture.

What is clear is that he is more confident, not only on the car, but most importantly on himself and what he can do... That is only gained with seat time / miles behind the wheel.

I for one appreciate how he has tackled his F1 career so far, a first rookie year where instead of going for “heroics”, he took care of the car, even if that meant losing positions at the start... No point of going for every gap if your race is ruined in lap 1, making sure that he was finishing those races not only helped the team in terms of points to finish 4th that season, but also allowed him to keep growing as a driver... He probably had close to zero influence in regards to car setup while he was still learning not only what effects some changes have, also how to describe to the team what he needed from the car.

His second season saw an improvement over the first, a bit more confidence, but still cautious, which I argue also helped Mclaren finish 3rd in the standings, he had a great season and even though he was behind Carlos (probably driven by experience more than just outright speed), he held his own during the season and kept improving throughout it while still showing glimpses of great speed in Qualifying... He also managed to do quiet good at the new tracks that were included last season due to Covid (let’s keep in mind that a few of the tracks in his maiden season where probably new to him).

Throughout his first couple of seasons, he kept it outside of the barriers, rarely involved in accidents and those that did happen were mostly outside of his control, that’s one of the best attributes he brought to the team, while been consistent enough to bring home points when the car had the capability of doing so.

He is in his 3rd season and still only 21 years old, he will probably keep developing and honing his skills for at 3-4 years before he starts “peaking”, he will learn from Daniel’s experience and skills... His biggest advantage will be if he can maintain humility and learn from those his racing against and incorporate what they do great into his tool box.


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I got a few replies to this post and appreciate some good input and some good points from everybody.
The main point i made though everybody has completely misquoted and completely misunderstood.

My point is Lando over a 2 year period and 38 race weekends with Carlos seems to have improved of course. We talking 38 races, 38 qualifying sessions, and 80+ practise sessions.

And yes the most improvement in speed and laptime is achieved during the first year and second year then tapers off.
Now what i am talking about is not confidence, less crashes or anything of that sort as thing you can mature even after 15 years in this area and Lando has improved this year it seems sure. Please do not misquote me saying drivers cannot improve and mature. I am just referring to all out race pace and qualifying pace. Laptime raw pace.

That we do not see big improvements in a drivers 3rd year in F1 in the same team and environment.
Remember also Mclaren is a great fun team that made Norris feel at home from day 1. Jumps in performance could possibly be seen switching teams, or switching management if previous was terrible, or massively changing the concept of the car which you hated previously. This could see noticeable gains in lap time from EXTREME changes like this.
Nothing EXTREME has changed in the 3rd year at Mclaren everything is super stable hence my analysis.

So my point is very clear. Lando seems half a second plus quicker than Ric in race pace most races and qualifying even up to a 1 second some laps even we have seen. And some people are suggesting Lando has gained this half a second plus not RIc is struggling to find this half a second plus.

And my point is show me a driver who gained half a second plus during an off season holidaying from the 13th of Dec 2020 Ahbu Dhabi, to the 28th of March with only 3 half days in the car testing/practising.

Certain people are suggesting Lando gained more lap time (half a second plus) on a 3 month holiday then he did in 38 FULL RACE weekends over a FULL 2 year F1 (initial) period which I would estimate at say 3 tenths.

Lando is a very fast driver sure. But he did not gain more laptime on holidays relaxing then he did after 2 years and 38 full race weekends. Ric is struggling and dropped off. That is the only logical conclusion as drivers have in history struggled and dropped off swapping teams. There is evidence of this happening throughout F1 history. But zero evidence of the opposite happening with a driver gaining more speed (half a second plus) in an off season holiday period then 2 previous years (say 3 tenths). (rough estimates)

If people still believe this please show me a previous (similar) example of this happening in F1 history? And I mean has to be the similar as I have been very specific in my analysis and the exact impossible conditions that this has occurred.
As yes I say its impossible. Its never happened before and never will.

I may be missing your point and having a hard time understanding... Is your point that Lando couldn’t have made a bigger jump from in his third season compared to his improvements in the first and second season?

May very well be the case, the problem is that we can’t quantify it... You can’t say that Lando is (insert amount of tenths here) faster than previous season, simply because there is plethora of factors outside of his driving that affect lap times.

We can’t objectively quantify his improvement because:

- The MCL35M is a different car to the MCL35: Not only do the cars have different downforce levels and balance (due to the changes in the floor regulations and rear brakes), they are also using a different PU, with different power delivery, drivability, etc.

- The effect of Track Conditions on Tire Temperature: When of the key factors that determine lap time in today’s Formula 1 is how easy is to get the tires into the operating window and maintain it there, just in Monaco Mercedes underperformed because they couldn’t heat up the tires quickly enough for example.

- Overall Track Conditions: The Mclaren responds different to Wind Conditions than other cars, not really liking gusty conditions, it may suit better lower track temperatures than higher track temperatures (if they bring energy into the tires fast enough).

So, in essence, the improvement made by the team in 2021 can’t be attributed to just the driver... Has Lando made an improvement? I believe everyone agrees on that, but from there to say that he is bringing 1 more tenth a full second more to the car due to his driving is pure conjecture or speculation on our part.

Now, in regards to your point that he couldn’t have improve more over the winter compared to his 38 Full Races + Qualis + Practice laps... The reality is that the current MCL35M could suit him better than previous cars and therefore he could be in reality making a bigger jump in performance “over the winter” than he had in previous seasons... This is something that we are observing with Daniel, which I’m sure didn’t lost a lot of tenths “over the winter”, simply put his struggling to adapt to the MCL35M which at this point seems to suit Lando’s driving style more than his.

In regards to the gap between drivers, out of the last 5 races, I’ve not seeing a second gap between them under normal conditions... Daniel had more pace in Spain, not only during Qualy, but also during the race for example, Imola is hard to tell because of the changing conditions and because it’s a track that was early in the season with Daniel still adapting (“newish” track for them, a track that requires confidence in the car and variable weather conditions aren’t really helpful for someone getting used to a new car) and Monaco is a track that not only will also exacerbate any confidence in the car issues, but track position will determine your pace (or do we think that Lando - Mclaren is 40 seconds faster than Hamilton - Mercedes?)... So trying to use Monaco as a reference of pace delta is also a bit mute.

We are now entering a bit more known territory, Baku, France, Austria x 2 will give us a better idea of the gap between them and are also tracks that are a known commodity for the drivers.

Finally, in regards to your comment to show you one driver that has improved more in his third season compared to the previous two, you simply can’t compare it that way... The cars have a huge effect on driver performance, so we can’t tell how much was driver improvement or lack there off as I explain before.


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Let me clarify i am not just refering to your post but in general as many people have posted since the beggining of the year Lando made a huge step all of a sudden in just 1 race.

"I may be missing your point and having a hard time understanding... Is your point that Lando couldn’t have made a bigger jump from in his third season compared to his improvements in the first and second season?"

"Finally, in regards to your comment to show you one driver that has improved more in his third season compared to the previous two, you simply can’t compare it that way... The cars have a huge effect on driver performance, so we can’t tell how much was driver improvement or lack there off as I explain before."

<----
To clarify exactly, Lando could not have made a "bigger step" in just 1 race, last race of 2020 to 1st race in 2021 than he did in 2 full years and 38 races over 2 full seasons. As not you per say in particular, but many have suggested that is exactly what happened and not that Ric is struggling. Just Lando raised his level magically in 1 race really.

yes you mention the cars have changed. For Ric switching to Mclaren is a huge change. gearbox, pedals, brake feel, design philosophy, steering pressure, wing mirror position, floor cut out, engine, new team engineer, new management etc etc etc.
Lando only has new engine, floor cut out, and minimal other changes due to tokens, in comparison.
Lando has to deal with say 15% changes which sure is something. But Ric has 60% changes as he switched teams and cars.
Ric has to deal with 400% more changes
(i am just using these as guides and estimates to explain my point that are not exact of course)

I am saying Ric is somehow struggling and dropped off from his usual high consistant performances we know form him.
Many others here are saying the opposite that Lando just raised his level magically and this is Ric's true pace.

And i am saying I have never seen a driver with such minimal changes of say 15% year to year as i explained above in the exact same team, somehow find more lap time in 1 race than the previous 2 years and 38 races.

As that is what people seem to be suggesting instead of Ric falling off, struggling in some way which is my explanation.

That's my point which does seem to have confused a few people.

[ispano6]

The mind games started a bit back. Norris might seem like the joker, but he has a bit of a upper hand on Ricciardo. I remember that cheeky move where he shoved Albon into Ricciardo. Though which is the smiling assassin? Ricciardo may be the newbie to the team, but once he has confidence in the car and get to grips with it, he may equal Norris. Norris is quick however, so Ricciardo needs to take what he can from what Norris understands of the car, if Norris is willing to help.

[SmallSoldier]

I got a few replies to this post and appreciate some good input and some good points from everybody.
The main point i made though everybody has completely misquoted and completely misunderstood.

My point is Lando over a 2 year period and 38 race weekends with Carlos seems to have improved of course. We talking 38 races, 38 qualifying sessions, and 80+ practise sessions.

And yes the most improvement in speed and laptime is achieved during the first year and second year then tapers off.
Now what i am talking about is not confidence, less crashes or anything of that sort as thing you can mature even after 15 years in this area and Lando has improved this year it seems sure. Please do not misquote me saying drivers cannot improve and mature. I am just referring to all out race pace and qualifying pace. Laptime raw pace.

That we do not see big improvements in a drivers 3rd year in F1 in the same team and environment.
Remember also Mclaren is a great fun team that made Norris feel at home from day 1. Jumps in performance could possibly be seen switching teams, or switching management if previous was terrible, or massively changing the concept of the car which you hated previously. This could see noticeable gains in lap time from EXTREME changes like this.
Nothing EXTREME has changed in the 3rd year at Mclaren everything is super stable hence my analysis.

So my point is very clear. Lando seems half a second plus quicker than Ric in race pace most races and qualifying even up to a 1 second some laps even we have seen. And some people are suggesting Lando has gained this half a second plus not RIc is struggling to find this half a second plus.

And my point is show me a driver who gained half a second plus during an off season holidaying from the 13th of Dec 2020 Ahbu Dhabi, to the 28th of March with only 3 half days in the car testing/practising.

Certain people are suggesting Lando gained more lap time (half a second plus) on a 3 month holiday then he did in 38 FULL RACE weekends over a FULL 2 year F1 (initial) period which I would estimate at say 3 tenths.

Lando is a very fast driver sure. But he did not gain more laptime on holidays relaxing then he did after 2 years and 38 full race weekends. Ric is struggling and dropped off. That is the only logical conclusion as drivers have in history struggled and dropped off swapping teams. There is evidence of this happening throughout F1 history. But zero evidence of the opposite happening with a driver gaining more speed (half a second plus) in an off season holiday period then 2 previous years (say 3 tenths). (rough estimates)

If people still believe this please show me a previous (similar) example of this happening in F1 history? And I mean has to be the similar as I have been very specific in my analysis and the exact impossible conditions that this has occurred.
As yes I say its impossible. Its never happened before and never will.

I may be missing your point and having a hard time understanding... Is your point that Lando couldn’t have made a bigger jump from in his third season compared to his improvements in the first and second season?

May very well be the case, the problem is that we can’t quantify it... You can’t say that Lando is (insert amount of tenths here) faster than previous season, simply because there is plethora of factors outside of his driving that affect lap times.

We can’t objectively quantify his improvement because:

- The MCL35M is a different car to the MCL35: Not only do the cars have different downforce levels and balance (due to the changes in the floor regulations and rear brakes), they are also using a different PU, with different power delivery, drivability, etc.

- The effect of Track Conditions on Tire Temperature: When of the key factors that determine lap time in today’s Formula 1 is how easy is to get the tires into the operating window and maintain it there, just in Monaco Mercedes underperformed because they couldn’t heat up the tires quickly enough for example.

- Overall Track Conditions: The Mclaren responds different to Wind Conditions than other cars, not really liking gusty conditions, it may suit better lower track temperatures than higher track temperatures (if they bring energy into the tires fast enough).

So, in essence, the improvement made by the team in 2021 can’t be attributed to just the driver... Has Lando made an improvement? I believe everyone agrees on that, but from there to say that he is bringing 1 more tenth a full second more to the car due to his driving is pure conjecture or speculation on our part.

Now, in regards to your point that he couldn’t have improve more over the winter compared to his 38 Full Races + Qualis + Practice laps... The reality is that the current MCL35M could suit him better than previous cars and therefore he could be in reality making a bigger jump in performance “over the winter” than he had in previous seasons... This is something that we are observing with Daniel, which I’m sure didn’t lost a lot of tenths “over the winter”, simply put his struggling to adapt to the MCL35M which at this point seems to suit Lando’s driving style more than his.

In regards to the gap between drivers, out of the last 5 races, I’ve not seeing a second gap between them under normal conditions... Daniel had more pace in Spain, not only during Qualy, but also during the race for example, Imola is hard to tell because of the changing conditions and because it’s a track that was early in the season with Daniel still adapting (“newish” track for them, a track that requires confidence in the car and variable weather conditions aren’t really helpful for someone getting used to a new car) and Monaco is a track that not only will also exacerbate any confidence in the car issues, but track position will determine your pace (or do we think that Lando - Mclaren is 40 seconds faster than Hamilton - Mercedes?)... So trying to use Monaco as a reference of pace delta is also a bit mute.

We are now entering a bit more known territory, Baku, France, Austria x 2 will give us a better idea of the gap between them and are also tracks that are a known commodity for the drivers.

Finally, in regards to your comment to show you one driver that has improved more in his third season compared to the previous two, you simply can’t compare it that way... The cars have a huge effect on driver performance, so we can’t tell how much was driver improvement or lack there off as I explain before.


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Let me clarify i am not just refering to your post but in general as many people have posted since the beggining of the year Lando made a huge step all of a sudden in just 1 race.

"I may be missing your point and having a hard time understanding... Is your point that Lando couldn’t have made a bigger jump from in his third season compared to his improvements in the first and second season?"

"Finally, in regards to your comment to show you one driver that has improved more in his third season compared to the previous two, you simply can’t compare it that way... The cars have a huge effect on driver performance, so we can’t tell how much was driver improvement or lack there off as I explain before."

<----
To clarify exactly, Lando could not have made a "bigger step" in just 1 race, last race of 2020 to 1st race in 2021 than he did in 2 full years and 38 races over 2 full seasons. As not you per say in particular, but many have suggested that is exactly what happened and not that Ric is struggling. Just Lando raised his level magically in 1 race really.

yes you mention the cars have changed. For Ric switching to Mclaren is a huge change. gearbox, pedals, brake feel, design philosophy, steering pressure, wing mirror position, floor cut out, engine, new team engineer, new management etc etc etc.
Lando only has new engine, floor cut out, and minimal other changes due to tokens, in comparison.
Lando has to deal with say 15% changes which sure is something. But Ric has 60% changes as he switched teams and cars.
Ric has to deal with 400% more changes
(i am just using these as guides and estimates to explain my point that are not exact of course)

I am saying Ric is somehow struggling and dropped off from his usual high consistant performances we know form him.
Many others here are saying the opposite that Lando just raised his level magically and this is Ric's true pace.

And i am saying I have never seen a driver with such minimal changes of say 15% year to year as i explained above in the exact same team, somehow find more lap time in 1 race than the previous 2 years and 38 races.

As that is what people seem to be suggesting instead of Ric falling off, struggling in some way which is my explanation.

That's my point which does seem to have confused a few people.

Thanks for the explanation, I agree with you that right now the gap between Lando and Daniel has more to do with Daniel struggling than Lando increasing his pace... This acknowledge by the team themselves, as well as both drivers.

You may be overstating the effect of the changes, it isn’t about what percentage of changes you are subject to, it is related on whether the equipment (car) that you have suits their driving style... If the MCL35M would have suited Daniel’s style, he will probably be struggling a lot less and conceivably could be ahead of Lando on Race Pace (as most expected before the start of the season)... It isn’t the amount of changes, more than what the characteristics of the car that will have an effect.

Carlos is a good example of this, he went to Ferrari and is experiencing the same amount of changes that Daniel is experiencing, it is clear though that he isn’t struggling as much as Daniel and that could be because he either has the ability to adapt much faster or simply the Ferrari “suits his driving style” (I have a tendency to believe is the latter).

This is also applicable to other drivers that we have seeing struggle “more than expected” when changing teams (Gasly at Red Bull for example) and those struggles are maximized by the form of their team mates (Max drives the RBR better than anyone else so far) and it has a bit to do with the car characteristics that for one driver it suits their style and for another it makes them uneasy and hard to commit.

Finally, I do believe that a big part of the delta at Monaco is also due to Momentum... Lando comes with a lot of Momentum behind him, which not only allows him to have more confidence in the car, but most importantly on himself... Daniel has struggled so far (with a not very easy start to the season schedule of tracks) and doesn’t have that Momentum behind him, the lack of confidence in the car is probably compounded by a little lack of confidence in himself (that feeling of disbelief after Qualifying and the Race at Monaco)... He just needs a solid weekend where things go his way from FP1, not necessarily been in front of Lando, but fairly close in pace to build upon... One solid weekend and he’ll be back to his usual self


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[Mclarensenna]

I may be missing your point and having a hard time understanding... Is your point that Lando couldn’t have made a bigger jump from in his third season compared to his improvements in the first and second season?

May very well be the case, the problem is that we can’t quantify it... You can’t say that Lando is (insert amount of tenths here) faster than previous season, simply because there is plethora of factors outside of his driving that affect lap times.

We can’t objectively quantify his improvement because:

- The MCL35M is a different car to the MCL35: Not only do the cars have different downforce levels and balance (due to the changes in the floor regulations and rear brakes), they are also using a different PU, with different power delivery, drivability, etc.

- The effect of Track Conditions on Tire Temperature: When of the key factors that determine lap time in today’s Formula 1 is how easy is to get the tires into the operating window and maintain it there, just in Monaco Mercedes underperformed because they couldn’t heat up the tires quickly enough for example.

- Overall Track Conditions: The Mclaren responds different to Wind Conditions than other cars, not really liking gusty conditions, it may suit better lower track temperatures than higher track temperatures (if they bring energy into the tires fast enough).

So, in essence, the improvement made by the team in 2021 can’t be attributed to just the driver... Has Lando made an improvement? I believe everyone agrees on that, but from there to say that he is bringing 1 more tenth a full second more to the car due to his driving is pure conjecture or speculation on our part.

Now, in regards to your point that he couldn’t have improve more over the winter compared to his 38 Full Races + Qualis + Practice laps... The reality is that the current MCL35M could suit him better than previous cars and therefore he could be in reality making a bigger jump in performance “over the winter” than he had in previous seasons... This is something that we are observing with Daniel, which I’m sure didn’t lost a lot of tenths “over the winter”, simply put his struggling to adapt to the MCL35M which at this point seems to suit Lando’s driving style more than his.

In regards to the gap between drivers, out of the last 5 races, I’ve not seeing a second gap between them under normal conditions... Daniel had more pace in Spain, not only during Qualy, but also during the race for example, Imola is hard to tell because of the changing conditions and because it’s a track that was early in the season with Daniel still adapting (“newish” track for them, a track that requires confidence in the car and variable weather conditions aren’t really helpful for someone getting used to a new car) and Monaco is a track that not only will also exacerbate any confidence in the car issues, but track position will determine your pace (or do we think that Lando - Mclaren is 40 seconds faster than Hamilton - Mercedes?)... So trying to use Monaco as a reference of pace delta is also a bit mute.

We are now entering a bit more known territory, Baku, France, Austria x 2 will give us a better idea of the gap between them and are also tracks that are a known commodity for the drivers.

Finally, in regards to your comment to show you one driver that has improved more in his third season compared to the previous two, you simply can’t compare it that way... The cars have a huge effect on driver performance, so we can’t tell how much was driver improvement or lack there off as I explain before.


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Let me clarify i am not just refering to your post but in general as many people have posted since the beggining of the year Lando made a huge step all of a sudden in just 1 race.

"I may be missing your point and having a hard time understanding... Is your point that Lando couldn’t have made a bigger jump from in his third season compared to his improvements in the first and second season?"

"Finally, in regards to your comment to show you one driver that has improved more in his third season compared to the previous two, you simply can’t compare it that way... The cars have a huge effect on driver performance, so we can’t tell how much was driver improvement or lack there off as I explain before."

<----
To clarify exactly, Lando could not have made a "bigger step" in just 1 race, last race of 2020 to 1st race in 2021 than he did in 2 full years and 38 races over 2 full seasons. As not you per say in particular, but many have suggested that is exactly what happened and not that Ric is struggling. Just Lando raised his level magically in 1 race really.

yes you mention the cars have changed. For Ric switching to Mclaren is a huge change. gearbox, pedals, brake feel, design philosophy, steering pressure, wing mirror position, floor cut out, engine, new team engineer, new management etc etc etc.
Lando only has new engine, floor cut out, and minimal other changes due to tokens, in comparison.
Lando has to deal with say 15% changes which sure is something. But Ric has 60% changes as he switched teams and cars.
Ric has to deal with 400% more changes
(i am just using these as guides and estimates to explain my point that are not exact of course)

I am saying Ric is somehow struggling and dropped off from his usual high consistant performances we know form him.
Many others here are saying the opposite that Lando just raised his level magically and this is Ric's true pace.

And i am saying I have never seen a driver with such minimal changes of say 15% year to year as i explained above in the exact same team, somehow find more lap time in 1 race than the previous 2 years and 38 races.

As that is what people seem to be suggesting instead of Ric falling off, struggling in some way which is my explanation.

That's my point which does seem to have confused a few people.

Thanks for the explanation, I agree with you that right now the gap between Lando and Daniel has more to do with Daniel struggling than Lando increasing his pace... This acknowledge by the team themselves, as well as both drivers.

You may be overstating the effect of the changes, it isn’t about what percentage of changes you are subject to, it is related on whether the equipment (car) that you have suits their driving style... If the MCL35M would have suited Daniel’s style, he will probably be struggling a lot less and conceivably could be ahead of Lando on Race Pace (as most expected before the start of the season)... It isn’t the amount of changes, more than what the characteristics of the car that will have an effect.

Carlos is a good example of this, he went to Ferrari and is experiencing the same amount of changes that Daniel is experiencing, it is clear though that he isn’t struggling as much as Daniel and that could be because he either has the ability to adapt much faster or simply the Ferrari “suits his driving style” (I have a tendency to believe is the latter).

This is also applicable to other drivers that we have seeing struggle “more than expected” when changing teams (Gasly at Red Bull for example) and those struggles are maximized by the form of their team mates (Max drives the RBR better than anyone else so far) and it has a bit to do with the car characteristics that for one driver it suits their style and for another it makes them uneasy and hard to commit.

Finally, I do believe that a big part of the delta at Monaco is also due to Momentum... Lando comes with a lot of Momentum behind him, which not only allows him to have more confidence in the car, but most importantly on himself... Daniel has struggled so far (with a not very easy start to the season schedule of tracks) and doesn’t have that Momentum behind him, the lack of confidence in the car is probably compounded by a little lack of confidence in himself (that feeling of disbelief after Qualifying and the Race at Monaco)... He just needs a solid weekend where things go his way from FP1, not necessarily been in front of Lando, but fairly close in pace to build upon... One solid weekend and he’ll be back to his usual self


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yes i agree you make some very good points especially about adapting to different cars.

Ric when he jumped into the Redbull adjusted instantly and got the maximum out of it. Incredible tyre management and speed in races especially compared to Vettel in th same car. Also Overnight he could brake later than i think i have seen from any driver in F1. Vettel could brake nowhere near as late even after 5 years in that car. Ric took to that redbull like a duck to water. So did Max. But for some reason lately no other driver seems to be able to. Gasly seemed slower in the redbull than the Torro Rosso even some races.
very unsusual!
The Renault Ric struggled but adapted to it much easier it seems than Sainz did.
The Mclaren is possibly some bogey alien car for him that works in the exact opposite way he likes to drive. As he struggling more with this car so far than any previous car he drove.

There is talk of a new chassis for Ric also. Maybe that will help also get him up to speed quicker.

[e30ernest]

Let me clarify i am not just refering to your post but in general as many people have posted since the beggining of the year Lando made a huge step all of a sudden in just 1 race.

"I may be missing your point and having a hard time understanding... Is your point that Lando couldn’t have made a bigger jump from in his third season compared to his improvements in the first and second season?"

"Finally, in regards to your comment to show you one driver that has improved more in his third season compared to the previous two, you simply can’t compare it that way... The cars have a huge effect on driver performance, so we can’t tell how much was driver improvement or lack there off as I explain before."

<----
To clarify exactly, Lando could not have made a "bigger step" in just 1 race, last race of 2020 to 1st race in 2021 than he did in 2 full years and 38 races over 2 full seasons. As not you per say in particular, but many have suggested that is exactly what happened and not that Ric is struggling. Just Lando raised his level magically in 1 race really.

yes you mention the cars have changed. For Ric switching to Mclaren is a huge change. gearbox, pedals, brake feel, design philosophy, steering pressure, wing mirror position, floor cut out, engine, new team engineer, new management etc etc etc.
Lando only has new engine, floor cut out, and minimal other changes due to tokens, in comparison.
Lando has to deal with say 15% changes which sure is something. But Ric has 60% changes as he switched teams and cars.
Ric has to deal with 400% more changes
(i am just using these as guides and estimates to explain my point that are not exact of course)

I am saying Ric is somehow struggling and dropped off from his usual high consistant performances we know form him.
Many others here are saying the opposite that Lando just raised his level magically and this is Ric's true pace.

And i am saying I have never seen a driver with such minimal changes of say 15% year to year as i explained above in the exact same team, somehow find more lap time in 1 race than the previous 2 years and 38 races.

As that is what people seem to be suggesting instead of Ric falling off, struggling in some way which is my explanation.

That's my point which does seem to have confused a few people.

Thanks for the explanation, I agree with you that right now the gap between Lando and Daniel has more to do with Daniel struggling than Lando increasing his pace... This acknowledge by the team themselves, as well as both drivers.

You may be overstating the effect of the changes, it isn’t about what percentage of changes you are subject to, it is related on whether the equipment (car) that you have suits their driving style... If the MCL35M would have suited Daniel’s style, he will probably be struggling a lot less and conceivably could be ahead of Lando on Race Pace (as most expected before the start of the season)... It isn’t the amount of changes, more than what the characteristics of the car that will have an effect.

Carlos is a good example of this, he went to Ferrari and is experiencing the same amount of changes that Daniel is experiencing, it is clear though that he isn’t struggling as much as Daniel and that could be because he either has the ability to adapt much faster or simply the Ferrari “suits his driving style” (I have a tendency to believe is the latter).

This is also applicable to other drivers that we have seeing struggle “more than expected” when changing teams (Gasly at Red Bull for example) and those struggles are maximized by the form of their team mates (Max drives the RBR better than anyone else so far) and it has a bit to do with the car characteristics that for one driver it suits their style and for another it makes them uneasy and hard to commit.

Finally, I do believe that a big part of the delta at Monaco is also due to Momentum... Lando comes with a lot of Momentum behind him, which not only allows him to have more confidence in the car, but most importantly on himself... Daniel has struggled so far (with a not very easy start to the season schedule of tracks) and doesn’t have that Momentum behind him, the lack of confidence in the car is probably compounded by a little lack of confidence in himself (that feeling of disbelief after Qualifying and the Race at Monaco)... He just needs a solid weekend where things go his way from FP1, not necessarily been in front of Lando, but fairly close in pace to build upon... One solid weekend and he’ll be back to his usual self


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

yes i agree you make some very good points especially about adapting to different cars.

Ric when he jumped into the Redbull adjusted instantly and got the maximum out of it. Incredible tyre management and speed in races especially compared to Vettel in th same car. Also Overnight he could brake later than i think i have seen from any driver in F1. Vettel could brake nowhere near as late even after 5 years in that car. Ric took to that redbull like a duck to water. So did Max. But for some reason lately no other driver seems to be able to. Gasly seemed slower in the redbull than the Torro Rosso even some races.
very unsusual!
The Renault Ric struggled but adapted to it much easier it seems than Sainz did.
The Mclaren is possibly some bogey alien car for him that works in the exact opposite way he likes to drive. As he struggling more with this car so far than any previous car he drove.

There is talk of a new chassis for Ric also. Maybe that will help also get him up to speed quicker.

So I remember in one of Nico Rosberg's podcasts he had Daniel as a guest. They discussed the braking on the Renault and how Daniel was having issues with it. Nico gave him some input on adjusting the brakes and it seems after that Daniel was up to speed with the Renault. Maybe its similar to this? Brake feel can vary from car to car and can be a huge contributor to driver confidence and speed.

[Mclarensenna]

Thanks for the explanation, I agree with you that right now the gap between Lando and Daniel has more to do with Daniel struggling than Lando increasing his pace... This acknowledge by the team themselves, as well as both drivers.

You may be overstating the effect of the changes, it isn’t about what percentage of changes you are subject to, it is related on whether the equipment (car) that you have suits their driving style... If the MCL35M would have suited Daniel’s style, he will probably be struggling a lot less and conceivably could be ahead of Lando on Race Pace (as most expected before the start of the season)... It isn’t the amount of changes, more than what the characteristics of the car that will have an effect.

Carlos is a good example of this, he went to Ferrari and is experiencing the same amount of changes that Daniel is experiencing, it is clear though that he isn’t struggling as much as Daniel and that could be because he either has the ability to adapt much faster or simply the Ferrari “suits his driving style” (I have a tendency to believe is the latter).

This is also applicable to other drivers that we have seeing struggle “more than expected” when changing teams (Gasly at Red Bull for example) and those struggles are maximized by the form of their team mates (Max drives the RBR better than anyone else so far) and it has a bit to do with the car characteristics that for one driver it suits their style and for another it makes them uneasy and hard to commit.

Finally, I do believe that a big part of the delta at Monaco is also due to Momentum... Lando comes with a lot of Momentum behind him, which not only allows him to have more confidence in the car, but most importantly on himself... Daniel has struggled so far (with a not very easy start to the season schedule of tracks) and doesn’t have that Momentum behind him, the lack of confidence in the car is probably compounded by a little lack of confidence in himself (that feeling of disbelief after Qualifying and the Race at Monaco)... He just needs a solid weekend where things go his way from FP1, not necessarily been in front of Lando, but fairly close in pace to build upon... One solid weekend and he’ll be back to his usual self


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

yes i agree you make some very good points especially about adapting to different cars.

Ric when he jumped into the Redbull adjusted instantly and got the maximum out of it. Incredible tyre management and speed in races especially compared to Vettel in th same car. Also Overnight he could brake later than i think i have seen from any driver in F1. Vettel could brake nowhere near as late even after 5 years in that car. Ric took to that redbull like a duck to water. So did Max. But for some reason lately no other driver seems to be able to. Gasly seemed slower in the redbull than the Torro Rosso even some races.
very unsusual!
The Renault Ric struggled but adapted to it much easier it seems than Sainz did.
The Mclaren is possibly some bogey alien car for him that works in the exact opposite way he likes to drive. As he struggling more with this car so far than any previous car he drove.

There is talk of a new chassis for Ric also. Maybe that will help also get him up to speed quicker.

So I remember in one of Nico Rosberg's podcasts he had Daniel as a guest. They discussed the braking on the Renault and how Daniel was having issues with it. Nico gave him some input on adjusting the brakes and it seems after that Daniel was up to speed with the Renault. Maybe its similar to this? Brake feel can vary from car to car and can be a huge contributor to driver confidence and speed.

yes brake feel and confidence definitely plays a big role i agree.

[BMMR61]

It looks like the front wing and z floor update introduced at Barcelona has set up the MCL35M as an all rounder, sorting the low front grip in low speed corners. Ignoring the Lewis issues at Monaco, Lando was pretty much on the pace of the fastest Mercedes and to be fair Verstappen was probably underperforming in Q3 and should have been a couple of tenths quicker. I think we all expect Ferrari to fall way at faster tracks so McLaren are hunting down the two top guys, at least in qualifying pace. Truly impressive if true and beyond my earlier optimism! Talk of Daniel’s demise are premature I think, but the team could do with his competitiveness emerging.

[djos]

Lando has been doing an outstanding job in the car, however he has said some things that the media has twisted to sell clicks, or eyeballs or whatever it is Google sell these days.

He could have been a little more discerning in his comments tho. That said, he’s only 21 and he’s way more level headed than I was at that age.

[aral]

A number of off topic and personal ying yang comments have been deleted. As these have no relevance to the McLaren team, could you please discuss your personal lives using the PM facility. Thanks

[SmallSoldier]

Please find a part of the Telemetry data, which zyxwl2015 from Reddit helped me with, it doesn’t have the brake and throttle information, but hopefully it helps visualize the comments I made earlier on the thread in regards to the difference between Lando and Daniel




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[restless]

pretty obvious from the graph - Daniel brakes earlier, and Lando brakes later