Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[etusch]

There does seem to be something going on, Honda have some reliability issues around their hybrid components, and it seems like they may have gone a bit more conservative lately (though it's hard to separate from all the other factors in play).

I'm happy to put the Italian article under "speculation". Who knows, maybe they heard something, maybe they didn't, maybe they put 2 and 2 together and came out with 22. So far it's one source that I haven't heard of before. No big deal. We'll see.

I can accept ( and I also think ) that they pushed for ers where they lack of performance more and had some issues at there. But also they have best performance out there too when not detuned. I think it is pretty normal to have some issues when you push hard. But because of this nobody can say Honda are doing mistakes, especially nobody can say they are doing same mistakes they had made during McLaren times. Because main issue was McLaren's itself rather than Honda in that era. This is self proved.
Zero size and Lightweight concept can not be counted as a mistake
When something occur it can not be counted same with ex one directly.

[nzjrs]

Doesn't mean they fixed it, it might just mean they're back to pushing things so hard now they know they're in with a shot and so close to Mercedes (and they're happy to give it everything in the last year regardless), that they're getting instabilities back and that's bringing the same issues up.

Before Honda had to turn down their PUs they were clearly demonstrating power that made Mercedes worried and Toto and Lewis saying the Honda engine was ahead. The word enormous came from Toto himself.

I wouldn't trust what Toto says - it's now been admitted that Mercedes acts in public and makes statements to manipulate the perception of how close their competitors are to them in order to coerce the FIA to act, or not to act.

[etusch]

Doesn't mean they fixed it, it might just mean they're back to pushing things so hard now they know they're in with a shot and so close to Mercedes (and they're happy to give it everything in the last year regardless), that they're getting instabilities back and that's bringing the same issues up.

Before Honda had to turn down their PUs they were clearly demonstrating power that made Mercedes worried and Toto and Lewis saying the Honda engine was ahead. The word enormous came from Toto himself.

I wouldn't trust what Toto says - it's now been admitted that Mercedes acts in public and makes statements to manipulate the perception of how close their competitors are to them in order to coerce the FIA to act, or not to act.

ın this part I think Marko and Honda statements are referance as merc stuff like to lie. Marko had said merc has an advantage when they fulfill their battery. They are close but merc is a step forward

[ispano6]

Doesn't mean they fixed it, it might just mean they're back to pushing things so hard now they know they're in with a shot and so close to Mercedes (and they're happy to give it everything in the last year regardless), that they're getting instabilities back and that's bringing the same issues up.

Before Honda had to turn down their PUs they were clearly demonstrating power that made Mercedes worried and Toto and Lewis saying the Honda engine was ahead. The word enormous came from Toto himself.

I wouldn't trust what Toto says - it's now been admitted that Mercedes acts in public and makes statements to manipulate the perception of how close their competitors are to them in order to coerce the FIA to act, or not to act.

Sure it's the usual sandbagging, but Toto didn't say Honda was ahead, Lewis said that. Toto just said the power is enormous, literally. And we know Honda has had to turn down the PU since the opening race. We'll have to make do with it until there's a solution and upgrade.

[Bill]

Honda has done a great job, they have delivered a power unit that is extremely competitive — look at where AlphaTauri is,” said Wolff. “And we just have to take it as sportsmen.

[Lock2nl]

Before Honda had to turn down their PUs they were clearly demonstrating power that made Mercedes worried and Toto and Lewis saying the Honda engine was ahead. The word enormous came from Toto himself.

I wouldn't trust what Toto says - it's now been admitted that Mercedes acts in public and makes statements to manipulate the perception of how close their competitors are to them in order to coerce the FIA to act, or not to act.

And we know Honda has had to turn down the PU since the opening race.

Ispano06, this conclusion is based on what ? They did have to turn down the engine of Max in Bahrain. But Marko stated this was software related and easily fixed. And the next race he won...

[f1rules]

how close is honda really when we take into consideration that rb ran their medium df rw with felx the whole year? i havent seen the numbers, but merc ran more df and was the top speeds compareable or? and im not saying the honda is not good! no doubt they did a good job

[RGAEDA]

I think considering all the resistance the car experiences, RBR and Merc are neck and neck but it seems like RB's car experiences more drag when they go full downforce setup. In this regard, the honda should be a step above the merc to propel the RB's car at the same speed as Merc's. So far this season, i think honda has done well to keep up with Merc on all fronts and perhaps a bit more in terms of raw pace by sacrificing reliability.

[ispano6]

I wouldn't trust what Toto says - it's now been admitted that Mercedes acts in public and makes statements to manipulate the perception of how close their competitors are to them in order to coerce the FIA to act, or not to act.

And we know Honda has had to turn down the PU since the opening race.

Ispano06, this conclusion is based on what ? They did have to turn down the engine of Max in Bahrain. But Marko stated this was software related and easily fixed. And the next race he won...

Yeah Tanabe has stated that measures were taken to prevent the CE and ES issues from the early races and expects they don't happen again, same with fuel pressure issues, though with the fuel system the problem was very clear and that there were two completely different issues. He said he needs to balance power and reliability because of the number of races they need to run and is trying to extract the maximum from the PU through energy management. His latest comments point to them lacking in speed and strategy, but that there aren't huge concerns with regard to reliability. It harks back to what Asaki was saying earlier in the year where they need to run the PU in a way it doesn't break, so it seems the electronics and battery were overheating and that they had to mitigate that.

[Lock2nl]

Thanks Ispano6. I can now understand where the conclusion comes from. Though its not waterproof to me since some of Asaki's remarks are pretty general and should apply to all engine manufacturers. Overheating was no longer an issue in Italy so they seem to have tackled that without much loss of speed. Are you suggesting the turned down the engine after Imola?

[ispano6]

Thanks Ispano6. I can now understand where the conclusion comes from. Though its not waterproof to me since some of Asaki's remarks are pretty general and should apply to all engine manufacturers. Overheating was no longer an issue in Italy so they seem to have tackled that without much loss of speed. Are you suggesting the turned down the engine after Imola?

Well, Asaki's comments pertain only to Honda, from his interview and press conference. He specifically said he's not worried about the new ICE and that if necessary for reliability reasons the PU could be turned down, though he didn't elaborate what part of it would be. That is in the realm of managing the PU power vs reliability tradeoff, and if power is deemed more important, how reliable will it be. Ancillaries can be upgraded, software code can be refactored, but damage is irreversible and perhaps sudden. Risk a DNF for outright win or settle for 2nd, choose battles wisely and live another day. It's a shame they hadn't capitalized on the early races, especially with luck and track limits favoring MB. Honda is not happy with the current results, but there is a long way to go in the season. RedBull Honda need to develop the car and package, it's not at all a final product.

[godlameroso]

It seems part shortages around the world are holding up certain plans. Not to worry, the beast will be unleashed in due time

If everything goes according to plan(it never does), should be good to go by Baku.

[godlameroso]

Random thought. Humans use more energy exhaling than inhaling, after all, not a single person I know yawns enthusiastically, it's always lazy. How can we apply that logic to the combustion engine? Overboost doesn't work, or rather has diminishing returns. You are limited by cylinder filling and port velocity, and all overboost can do is increase pumping work, but also increases pumping losses.

By opening the wastegate you reduce back pressure and reduce pumping losses. Taken a step further, instead of over-boost the intake, use MGU-H to create over-vacuum of exhaust!

Only way to do that is to have a way to ensure manifold pressure is regulated independent of the compressor, such as a multi stage plennum.

Random thinking over.

[godlameroso]

Turbocharged engines are great at breathing, they were made to fly planes higher than the competition. Even at high altitudes where the air is thinner turbo engines breathe very well. Where turbo engines are held back is the turbine, it causes back pressure, and the pun is in the cringe of all time sweepstakes.

The MGU-H can reduce back pressure, but can it go to the next level and create a "deep belly breathe" engine?

[gruntguru]

The turbine type mandated by the rules cannot be operated as a pump or compressor.

(at least not without reversing the plumbing connections and the direction of rotation)