2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

[mclaren113]

in 2008 Bmw had a very good car but they abandoned it to focus on next year big regulation change .when new season started the double diffuser cars came alone and tore them apart by the year end bmw left f1 never to be seen again now they sell overpriced M cars without any meaningful participation in Motorsport same fate may befall merc without leaving f1 .just because u focusing on next year car does guarantee gains. the should also focus on these year car it is good at low altitude.

Don't forget that they got it right in 2014 by forgetting the previous cars

[zibby43]

Focusing on this year when the cars are essentially limited to aero surfaces (due to the homologation that prevents changes to critical areas of the car that can yield big performance chunks) that won’t cure Merc’s defects makes little sense to me.

[214270]

I don’t know whether anyone saw RUSs onboard in quali. He switched to the higher power mode very late in his build lap, just before sweeping onto the main straight suggesting there’s still a problem with deployment. Coupled with HAM over the radio complaining about multiple derates; it does make you wonder how they’ve managed to drop the ball so bad.

[Just_a_fan]

Shovlin said that Mercedes explored a radical set-up change leading up to the GP, developed by Hamilton in the simulator, and that it may have hurt their race pace and neutralized their rear degradation advantage.

“It is a difficult and quite peculiar circuit and Red Bull are normally strong here. But we’re also exploring a fairly wacky direction with the set-up as a radical approach, which I think was maybe a bit better on the single lap. The question that remains is whether we’ve hurt our degradation and we need to look at that in the next day or two.”

Full article:

https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/28/wac ... race-pace/

Interesting. Hamilton rarely uses the simulator so it shows that he's using every tool he can to try to get pace in to the car. That's good to see, I think, as it shows there is still the passion to win.

[mkay]

I don’t know whether anyone saw RUSs onboard in quali. He switched to the higher power mode very late in his build lap, just before sweeping onto the main straight suggesting there’s still a problem with deployment. Coupled with HAM over the radio complaining about multiple derates; it does make you wonder how they’ve managed to drop the ball so bad.

Wonder whether we're seeing the impact of Cowell's departure. Mercedes HPP, despite the big talk around the new plenum, etc., has truly dropped the ball this year relative to Honda.

[Just_a_fan]

I don’t know whether anyone saw RUSs onboard in quali. He switched to the higher power mode very late in his build lap, just before sweeping onto the main straight suggesting there’s still a problem with deployment. Coupled with HAM over the radio complaining about multiple derates; it does make you wonder how they’ve managed to drop the ball so bad.

Wonder whether we're seeing the impact of Cowell's departure. Mercedes HPP, despite the big talk around the new plenum, etc., has truly dropped the ball this year relative to Honda.

Or Honda has caught up. These PUs are well up to the point where the law of diminishing returns is biting the top PUs hard. With the engine freeze now in place, there isn't really any ball dropping to be done. It's just fine tuning around the edges now.

[El Scorchio]

I don’t know whether anyone saw RUSs onboard in quali. He switched to the higher power mode very late in his build lap, just before sweeping onto the main straight suggesting there’s still a problem with deployment. Coupled with HAM over the radio complaining about multiple derates; it does make you wonder how they’ve managed to drop the ball so bad.

Wonder whether we're seeing the impact of Cowell's departure. Mercedes HPP, despite the big talk around the new plenum, etc., has truly dropped the ball this year relative to Honda.

I think it's more that Honda brought forward two years' worth of upgrades all at once for a pretty big net gain before departing the sport. (and let's face it, so far this year somewhat better reliability than one might assume) I wouldn't say HPP have dropped the ball. This year is such an outlier for numerous reasons. The root cause of all MB's problems is the (substantially larger than most teams) loss of downforce from the interim regs, and very little opportunity or (smart) incentive to pour everything into trying to gain it back given it's all obsolete extremely soon. 2021 is not a hill to die on, and they've clearly realised this very early on in the season, and maybe even before it even started.

[basti313]

I don’t know whether anyone saw RUSs onboard in quali. He switched to the higher power mode very late in his build lap, just before sweeping onto the main straight suggesting there’s still a problem with deployment. Coupled with HAM over the radio complaining about multiple derates; it does make you wonder how they’ve managed to drop the ball so bad.

Wonder whether we're seeing the impact of Cowell's departure. Mercedes HPP, despite the big talk around the new plenum, etc., has truly dropped the ball this year relative to Honda.

I think it's more that Honda brought forward two years' worth of upgrades all at once for a pretty big net gain before departing the sport. (and let's face it, so far this year somewhat better reliability than one might assume) I wouldn't say HPP have dropped the ball. This year is such an outlier for numerous reasons. The root cause of all MB's problems is the (substantially larger than most teams) loss of downforce from the interim regs, and very little opportunity or (smart) incentive to pour everything into trying to gain it back given it's all obsolete extremely soon. 2021 is not a hill to die on, and they've clearly realised this very early on in the season, and maybe even before it even started.

I do not think it is that complicated. Honda went through a hard learning circle especially on reliability. The did testruns with Torro two years ago, they had gremlins with Ves last year.
Merc went through the same issues, but years before with more time. But if you compare the number of failed engines including customer teams, it should be quite similar.
All of this learning circle led to similarly reliable engines....so with similar reliability they also have roughly the same power they can put out. There is still no evidence, that Honda has more power, you can still explain everything with the rear wing.

I do not think it has anything to do with Cowell or miraculous upgrades. Even by contrast, power upgrades would not have ended with rock solid reliability for Honda. This is rather the point to discuss for Merc, did they reduce the reliability with the upgrades and now run compromised?

[El Scorchio]

Wonder whether we're seeing the impact of Cowell's departure. Mercedes HPP, despite the big talk around the new plenum, etc., has truly dropped the ball this year relative to Honda.

I think it's more that Honda brought forward two years' worth of upgrades all at once for a pretty big net gain before departing the sport. (and let's face it, so far this year somewhat better reliability than one might assume) I wouldn't say HPP have dropped the ball. This year is such an outlier for numerous reasons. The root cause of all MB's problems is the (substantially larger than most teams) loss of downforce from the interim regs, and very little opportunity or (smart) incentive to pour everything into trying to gain it back given it's all obsolete extremely soon. 2021 is not a hill to die on, and they've clearly realised this very early on in the season, and maybe even before it even started.

I do not think it is that complicated. Honda went through a hard learning circle especially on reliability. The did testruns with Torro two years ago, they had gremlins with Ves last year.
Merc went through the same issues, but years before with more time. But if you compare the number of failed engines including customer teams, it should be quite similar.
All of this learning circle led to similarly reliable engines....so with similar reliability they also have roughly the same power they can put out. There is still no evidence, that Honda has more power, you can still explain everything with the rear wing.

I do not think it has anything to do with Cowell or miraculous upgrades. Even by contrast, power upgrades would not have ended with rock solid reliability for Honda. This is rather the point to discuss for Merc, did they reduce the reliability with the upgrades and now run compromised?

I was getting more at Honda have done a great job bringing two years' worth of upgrades with virtually no reliability trade off. Definitely they've done a lot of the 'pain' with McLaren, TR (as they were then) before they got to RBR, and then at the start of the RBR relationship, but now it's really paying off. As you say I don't think that should be turned back on HPP to say they haven't done a good job, because it's still clearly a very good unit.

The compounding factor is the inherent lack of downforce that MB can't overcome within the parameters they've been set for this year. We don't know how much is engine vs chassis. We don't know for sure which engine is 'better' because we can't say which manufacturer is having to push theirs harder and there are far too many variables between the cars to make clear judgement. RBR may be stressing the Honda more to be out in front or MB may be stressing the Merc more to try and stay close.

I expect it'll become clear at the end of the season, where I think MB will say they just couldn't overcome the relative loss of downforce compared to competitors without jeopardising their plans for 2022 and beyond. If it were not for the 2022 reg change and the prohibitive development parameters for 2021, I think you'd have seen some pretty big changes to the car both between seasons and during this season. There's no point in putting little aero trinkets on if the carried over fundamental concept of the car means it is inherently not as fast this season as other concepts are, with the 2021 floor regs.

[Hoffman900]

I don’t know whether anyone saw RUSs onboard in quali. He switched to the higher power mode very late in his build lap, just before sweeping onto the main straight suggesting there’s still a problem with deployment. Coupled with HAM over the radio complaining about multiple derates; it does make you wonder how they’ve managed to drop the ball so bad.

Wonder whether we're seeing the impact of Cowell's departure. Mercedes HPP, despite the big talk around the new plenum, etc., has truly dropped the ball this year relative to Honda.

Or Honda has caught up. These PUs are well up to the point where the law of diminishing returns is biting the top PUs hard. With the engine freeze now in place, there isn't really any ball dropping to be done. It's just fine tuning around the edges now.

Likely this.

Mercedes HPP is way bigger than just Andy Cowell.


edit: had a brain fart on names

[Dee]

Is anyone else concerned by the reliability of the Merc engine?

Russell out with an issue

Ricciardo with an issue which ment he had less power for the rest of the race

[101FlyingDutchman]

Is anyone else concerned by the reliability of the Merc engine?

Russell out with an issue

Ricciardo with an issue which ment he had less power for the rest of the race

RICs power unit was fine. Where did you see it reported he was down on power for the rest of the race? Even the MCL team-stream said the unit was all ok after some switching.

[Dee]

Is anyone else concerned by the reliability of the Merc engine?

Russell out with an issue

Ricciardo with an issue which ment he had less power for the rest of the race

RICs power unit was fine. Where did you see it reported he was down on power for the rest of the race? Even the MCL team-stream said the unit was all ok after some switching.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ricci ... g/6617944/

You are right that he got it back. I didn't read it clearly.

Food for thought though. Lost power and told to stay out of the slipstream to cool the car.

Then there is Russell who had to DNF due to a power unit issue

[dans79]

I think 3 issues are causing what we are seeing.

1) the substandard Pirelli tires
2) the brake duct changes that hurt low rake concepts more than high rake ones.
3) Merc's refusal to do any real development on the W12.

[Dee]

I think 3 issues are causing what we are seeing.

1) the substandard Pirelli tires
2) the brake duct changes that hurt low rake concepts more than high rake ones.
3) Merc's refusal to do any real development on the W12.

Don't forget the higher tyre pressure that started from Baku, before then you could not say that RB had better tyre degradation than Mercedes

Also the hotter weather, was the Styrian GP the first real hot race we have had so far? RB car is well known to perform better in the heat