2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

[Dee]

Then you weren't paying attention, as Mercedes had to mess with several things on the engine because of de-rating and performance issue in testing and the first race!

Derating is a performance issue. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... l/5941677/

"Team boss Toto Wolff reckoned that Mercedes was losing out to Honda in terms of its derating – which is when the engine boost that comes from its energy recovery systems runs out at the end of straights.

Speaking about where Mercedes was losing time to Red Bull, Wolff said: “I think we're losing on the high speed [corners]. We can clearly see there's a deficit.

“We're losing a little bit on the engine side in terms of derate. We are not yet in a happy place with our energy recovery, but it's not one thing we point to where we can say this is the big gap.”

Solving this issue increases performance.. thus a performance update

Mercedes have not gone from having no derating issues in Bahrain to having them and then solving them which would be a reliability update

The ERS is not covered by the ban on upgrades. So if they can improve the way it does its thing then that is perfectly legal.

Derating also occurs if the system isn't happy about something e.g. temperature. So solving that issue would be a reliability fix and, again, legal.

When Allison says its a performance upgrade on the PU side and that is not allowed, I questioned it

If ERS upgrade is allowed, then that's that. We shall see how much performance that brings Mercedes

[Juzh]

Then you weren't paying attention, as Mercedes had to mess with several things on the engine because of de-rating and performance issue in testing and the first race!

Derating is a performance issue. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... l/5941677/

"Team boss Toto Wolff reckoned that Mercedes was losing out to Honda in terms of its derating – which is when the engine boost that comes from its energy recovery systems runs out at the end of straights.

Speaking about where Mercedes was losing time to Red Bull, Wolff said: “I think we're losing on the high speed [corners]. We can clearly see there's a deficit.

“We're losing a little bit on the engine side in terms of derate. We are not yet in a happy place with our energy recovery, but it's not one thing we point to where we can say this is the big gap.”

Solving this issue increases performance.. thus a performance update

Mercedes have not gone from having no derating issues in Bahrain to having them and then solving them which would be a reliability update

The ERS is not covered by the ban on upgrades. So if they can improve the way it does its thing then that is perfectly legal.

Derating also occurs if the system isn't happy about something e.g. temperature. So solving that issue would be a reliability fix and, again, legal.

This post would warrant a -1 on being completely factually incorrect. Everything hardware related on PU is frozen and that includes ERS components. MGU-K, MGU-H and control electronics are all banned from development. This is common knowledge and someone who frequents this forum should know this. Only ERS management trough software changes is permitted but this one is obvious and should not even be considered in this debate. ERS and ICE parameters change constantly even between practice sessions, so it's a pointless topic.

As for hypothetical temperature problems, obviously anything is possible, but first you have to sell it to the FIA that you're really making a reliability upgrade and the way you put it it seems an awful lot like a straight on performance boost. Mercedes have just introduced second PU in Baku and we've not heard any noises about increased performance so far, so I doubt they were able to sneak in a meaningful upgrade.

[nzjrs]

As for hypothetical temperature problems, obviously anything is possible, but first you have to sell it to the FIA that you're really making a reliability upgrade and the way you put it it seems an awful lot like a straight on performance boost. Mercedes have just introduced second PU in Baku and we've not heard any noises about increased performance so far, so I doubt they were able to sneak in a meaningful upgrade.

Ironically MB could use their *early* PU change in Baku as support for their reliability argument. It was interesting that when Honda did not introduce the new engine specification it was remarked upon, but as Honda/Horner mentioned, it's not that Honda made the change later than the other teams, but rather that the other teams made the change earlier than 'optimal' - at least according to the total mileage of the season divided by 3 PUs.

It's all press and politics wars of course, but I thought it interesting how it was framed.

[dans79]

This post would warrant a -1 on being completely factually incorrect. Everything hardware related on PU in frozen and that includes ERS components. MGU-K, MGU-H and control electronics are all banned from development. This is common knowledge and someone who frequents this forum should know this. Only ERS management trough software changes is permitted but this one is obvious and should not even be considered in this debate. ERS and ICE parameters change constantly even between practice sessions, so it's a pointless topic.

I think you might be incorrect on this. Take a look at page 120 of the technical regulations.

Look at the chart, and then read the last 2 lines under it. In other words if they started of the season with 2020's MGU-K, ES, or CE they should be able to upgrade it.



https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -03-05.pdf

[Just_a_fan]

Explain to me why Mercedes are bringing performance upgrades on their engine when that has been specifically banned this year?

It's quoted in the story:

"So there's some more aerodynamic change in the offing, a little bit of PU we hope on the delivery side, and a few things that are not quite as tidy as we would wish that we still have the opportunity to put right while this season is still very much alive and hot."

It'll be how the electrical energy is deployed. So some fine tuning of that which is perfectly legal. Only the petrol burning bits are banned from performance upgrades.

Yep. Though RB did state that ExxonMobil has brought new lubricants which have enhanced performance of the ICE - perhaps Petronas is due to do the same as well?

That will be RDR's one and only change in oil then. They're allowed one change in the season. Presumably Petronas/Mercedes haven't used their one change yet - we'd have probably heard about it by now.

[Just_a_fan]

Derating is a performance issue. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... l/5941677/

"Team boss Toto Wolff reckoned that Mercedes was losing out to Honda in terms of its derating – which is when the engine boost that comes from its energy recovery systems runs out at the end of straights.

Speaking about where Mercedes was losing time to Red Bull, Wolff said: “I think we're losing on the high speed [corners]. We can clearly see there's a deficit.

“We're losing a little bit on the engine side in terms of derate. We are not yet in a happy place with our energy recovery, but it's not one thing we point to where we can say this is the big gap.”

Solving this issue increases performance.. thus a performance update

Mercedes have not gone from having no derating issues in Bahrain to having them and then solving them which would be a reliability update

The ERS is not covered by the ban on upgrades. So if they can improve the way it does its thing then that is perfectly legal.

Derating also occurs if the system isn't happy about something e.g. temperature. So solving that issue would be a reliability fix and, again, legal.

This post would warrant a -1 on being completely factually incorrect. Everything hardware related on PU is frozen and that includes ERS components. MGU-K, MGU-H and control electronics are all banned from development. This is common knowledge and someone who frequents this forum should know this. Only ERS management trough software changes is permitted but this one is obvious and should not even be considered in this debate. ERS and ICE parameters change constantly even between practice sessions, so it's a pointless topic.

As pointed out by someone else, it's not incorrect. One change is allowed in the season. Where I was wrong was in saying that ERS was allowed - actually everything is allowed one change as defined in the second table in Appendix 2 of the Technical Regs.

[dans79]

@Juzh, you also need to keep in mind the CE is made up of a lot of individual components and the specification limit applies to each of them individually.

As Renault found out in 2012 (alternator issues), even a minor/insignificant component can cause a big headache. It's not unrealistic to think if a team had an issue in preseason testing that they reverted to a previous spec for reliability reasons, even if it came with a performance decrease.

[zibby43]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57651115

Well. Fancy that.

Straight from Allison himself.

What a huge relief. And more from the PU as well.

[zibby43]

So, it's malicious because they want to hide what they are doing. The difference being that Honda made a reliablilty upgrade whereas Mercedes are putting in a performance update

Call it whatever you want, it's no different than what Honda did!

No. Honda had this performance in Bahrain. Whatever Mercedes get from when the upgrade is introduced is new

Oh, I was unaware you knew that Mercedes haven’t been running in compromised ICE or deployment modes this season, and that any performance unlocked will be coming from utilizing the same hardware, but more aggressively.

Just like Honda.

[Juzh]

The ERS is not covered by the ban on upgrades. So if they can improve the way it does its thing then that is perfectly legal.

Derating also occurs if the system isn't happy about something e.g. temperature. So solving that issue would be a reliability fix and, again, legal.

This post would warrant a -1 on being completely factually incorrect. Everything hardware related on PU is frozen and that includes ERS components. MGU-K, MGU-H and control electronics are all banned from development. This is common knowledge and someone who frequents this forum should know this. Only ERS management trough software changes is permitted but this one is obvious and should not even be considered in this debate. ERS and ICE parameters change constantly even between practice sessions, so it's a pointless topic.

As pointed out by someone else, it's not incorrect. One change is allowed in the season. Where I was wrong was in saying that ERS was allowed - actually everything is allowed one change as defined in the second table in Appendix 2 of the Technical Regs.

This I agree with this, but it seems unlikely mercedes waits until half the season is done to come up with new spec. These are new assumptions, not brought up before. Mercedes engines are all on second iteration of ICE, TC, MGU-H and MGU-K. We've not seen apparent performance increase from second batch, so time is running out on actually bringing new specs if they're indeed on 2020 parts.
https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/04/new ... ered-cars/

@Juzh, you also need to keep in mind the CE is made up of a lot of individual components and the specification limit applies to each of them individually.

As Renault found out in 2012 (alternator issues), even a minor/insignificant component can cause a big headache. It's not unrealistic to think if a team had an issue in preseason testing that they reverted to a previous spec for reliability reasons, even if it came with a performance decrease.

This again assumes mercedes haven't upgraded anything in 2021.

Alternator was not part of engine freeze spec, but it was a renault supplied part. Red bull switched to mclaren alternators for 2013 and problem went away. I don't think it fits into this conversation.

[Dee]

This post would warrant a -1 on being completely factually incorrect. Everything hardware related on PU in frozen and that includes ERS components. MGU-K, MGU-H and control electronics are all banned from development. This is common knowledge and someone who frequents this forum should know this. Only ERS management trough software changes is permitted but this one is obvious and should not even be considered in this debate. ERS and ICE parameters change constantly even between practice sessions, so it's a pointless topic.

I think you might be incorrect on this. Take a look at page 120 of the technical regulations.

Look at the chart, and then read the last 2 lines under it. In other words if they started of the season with 2020's MGU-K, ES, or CE they should be able to upgrade it.



https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -03-05.pdf
https://i.ibb.co/PGbTNr0/Untitled.png

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mercedes ... r-bahrain/

From Powertrains managing director Hywel Thomas

“Also, it’s the first winter where we have prepared for only one single upgrade for the whole season.

“So, we have to get all of our performance into the first PU that goes to the first race, whereas in previous seasons we have been able to split that up into different packages for each PU that gets introduced.

“So, with that challenge, we have to get absolutely everything there for the first race and make sure it’s completely reliable.

As seen in this interview, Mercedes already brought the updated PU to the first race. They will not be able to upgrade it further.

If the performance was not there in Bahrain, Mercedes should not bring an update that solves the derate issue. That is a net performance gain, not a reliability upgrade

[Dee]

Call it whatever you want, it's no different than what Honda did!

No. Honda had this performance in Bahrain. Whatever Mercedes get from when the upgrade is introduced is new

Oh, I was unaware you knew that Mercedes haven’t been running in compromised ICE or deployment modes this season, and that any performance unlocked will be coming from utilizing the same hardware, but more aggressively.

Just like Honda.

Again, running compromised from the start means that is your level of performance. Fixing it brings gains. Gains which are not allowed as set in the rules.

If Mercedes started with no reliability issues and then had issues and had to fix them, that is a different matter. But that did not happen.

[dans79]

This again assumes mercedes haven't upgraded anything in 2021.

Alternator was not part of engine freeze spec, but it was a renault supplied part. Red bull switched to mclaren alternators for 2013 and problem went away. I don't think it fits into this conversation.

I think you missed the point, The CE is made up of several individual components. Some are significant and some are trivial. I'd be willing to bet a decent chunk of change that every team on the grid hasn't updated every single component. Some of them are so trivial they aren't worth upgrading till you find an issue with them. Not to mention some issues won't be found until they are run in anger.

The alternator was a trivial part, but an issue with it wasn't found till it had been run in anger (round 8 in Valencia if memory serves).

[dans79]

As seen in this interview, Mercedes already brought the updated PU to the first race. They will not be able to upgrade it further.

If the performance was not there in Bahrain, Mercedes should not bring an update that solves the derate issue. That is a net performance gain, not a reliability upgrade

The article is from February 12th, A month even before preseason testing when they experienced issues.

Again, Your looking at this to simplistically in my opinion. Almost any time any team make a reliability upgrade, it comes with a performance upgrade. A team will overfix the problem if you will, thus letting them push it harder than they would have been able to do previously.

Not to mention your opinion of what is and isn't a reliability upgrade is pretty much at odds with everything we have seen through the history of the FIA regulating upgrades.

[dans79]

If Mercedes started with no reliability issues and then had issues and had to fix them, that is a different matter. But that did not happen.

And how do you know they didn't? They could have had issues in FP1 in Bahrain and made a change to ensure reliability.