Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

[Just_a_fan]

Second because ICE emit a lot of toxic substances wich are harmful for humans and any living organism (CO2 is not toxic)

Oh, CO2 is toxic at the cellular level although generally death is caused by asphyxiation rather than "poisoning". There is some research that suggests that long term exposure to high levels (3-10%) of CO2 causes long term damage to the cells in the lungs, for example, although this was from animal studies not specifically humans.

But agreed that for CO2 coming from cars, it's not really an issue unless sat in a closed garage with the engine running.

[J.A.W.]

CO2 = 7ppm up since the start of this thread. Somewhat 1,5%

Are electric vehicles viable yet?

They were viable when this thread got started 3 years ago, and they are now. Before someone jumps in saying they´re not viable for them because they can´t do long trips, I´ll clarify people tend to confuse viability with "is this suitable for 100% of population?"

Nothing is suitable for 100% of population, nothing. For example pick ups are not viable for me, too big (can´t find parking slots that big easily), they are too expensive, insurance is too high, they consume too much fuel... Supercars are another good example, they´re far from viable for vast majority of people, but none is saying pick ups or supercars are not viable vehicles like people tend to do with EVs

Well then, perhaps an electro-bike (not scooter/bicycle) might be within your scope of usage/funds?

Or perhaps not yet, or for a good while, all things considered... (See link below for reality check).

https://www.cycleworld.com/story/blogs/ ... rding-evs/

[nzjrs]

Well then, perhaps an electro-bike (not scooter/bicycle) might be within your scope of usage/funds?

Or perhaps not yet, or for a good while, all things considered... (See link below for reality check).

https://www.cycleworld.com/story/blogs/ ... rding-evs/

Thanks. The podcast at the end is interesting.

[J.A.W.]

Second because ICE emit a lot of toxic substances wich are harmful for humans and any living organism (CO2 is not toxic)

Oh, CO2 is toxic at the cellular level although generally death is caused by asphyxiation rather than "poisoning". There is some research that suggests that long term exposure to high levels (3-10%) of CO2 causes long term damage to the cells in the lungs, for example, although this was from animal studies not specifically humans.

But agreed that for CO2 coming from cars, it's not really an issue unless sat in a closed garage with the engine running.

I'd suggest some awareness of human acid-base balance physiological parametrics might be useful,
since CO2 is "instrumental" in this vital metabolic function, & we are 'carbon-based life-forms'...

See: https://www.optimaldx.com/blog/acid-base-balance/

[Just_a_fan]

Second because ICE emit a lot of toxic substances wich are harmful for humans and any living organism (CO2 is not toxic)

Oh, CO2 is toxic at the cellular level although generally death is caused by asphyxiation rather than "poisoning". There is some research that suggests that long term exposure to high levels (3-10%) of CO2 causes long term damage to the cells in the lungs, for example, although this was from animal studies not specifically humans.

But agreed that for CO2 coming from cars, it's not really an issue unless sat in a closed garage with the engine running.

I'd suggest some awareness of human acid-base balance physiological parametrics might be useful,
since CO2 is "instrumental" in this vital metabolic function, & we are 'carbon-based life-forms'...

See: https://www.optimaldx.com/blog/acid-base-balance/

And the relevance of that is what? CO2 in the blood is what controls respiration, amongst other things, as it affects blood pH. That's well known. It's not relevant to the toxicity (or otherwise) of excess environmental CO2.

Sit in a room with 1% CO2 and you'll find yourself breathing slightly quicker/more deeply. You might feel other symptoms but it won't kill you. Try it at 10-15% CO2 and you'll find yourself feeling unwell fairly quickly and then potentially becoming comatose and dying. Do it in a room with 30% and you'll never even realise as you'll be unconscious in moments and then dead in minutes.

Of course, none of that really matters when discussing the CO2 from cars as it alters CO2 concentrations by hundredths of a percent which makes little difference to anything other than possible global climate change.

[Zynerji]

Oh, CO2 is toxic at the cellular level although generally death is caused by asphyxiation rather than "poisoning". There is some research that suggests that long term exposure to high levels (3-10%) of CO2 causes long term damage to the cells in the lungs, for example, although this was from animal studies not specifically humans.

But agreed that for CO2 coming from cars, it's not really an issue unless sat in a closed garage with the engine running.

I'd suggest some awareness of human acid-base balance physiological parametrics might be useful,
since CO2 is "instrumental" in this vital metabolic function, & we are 'carbon-based life-forms'...

See: https://www.optimaldx.com/blog/acid-base-balance/

And the relevance of that is what? CO2 in the blood is what controls respiration, amongst other things, as it affects blood pH. That's well known. It's not relevant to the toxicity (or otherwise) of excess environmental CO2.

Sit in a room with 1% CO2 and you'll find yourself breathing slightly quicker/more deeply. You might feel other symptoms but it won't kill you. Try it at 10-15% CO2 and you'll find yourself feeling unwell fairly quickly and then potentially becoming comatose and dying. Do it in a room with 30% and you'll never even realise as you'll be unconscious in moments and then dead in minutes.

Of course, none of that really matters when discussing the CO2 from cars as it alters CO2 concentrations by hundredths of a percent which makes little difference to anything other than possible global climate change.

CO2 is the "Oxygen" for 98% of Life on Earth.

Its a bit haughty to claim it as a "toxin" or "harmful".

[Just_a_fan]

I'd suggest some awareness of human acid-base balance physiological parametrics might be useful,
since CO2 is "instrumental" in this vital metabolic function, & we are 'carbon-based life-forms'...

See: https://www.optimaldx.com/blog/acid-base-balance/

And the relevance of that is what? CO2 in the blood is what controls respiration, amongst other things, as it affects blood pH. That's well known. It's not relevant to the toxicity (or otherwise) of excess environmental CO2.

Sit in a room with 1% CO2 and you'll find yourself breathing slightly quicker/more deeply. You might feel other symptoms but it won't kill you. Try it at 10-15% CO2 and you'll find yourself feeling unwell fairly quickly and then potentially becoming comatose and dying. Do it in a room with 30% and you'll never even realise as you'll be unconscious in moments and then dead in minutes.

Of course, none of that really matters when discussing the CO2 from cars as it alters CO2 concentrations by hundredths of a percent which makes little difference to anything other than possible global climate change.

CO2 is the "Oxygen" for 98% of Life on Earth.

Its a bit haughty to claim it as a "toxin" or "harmful".

Not harmful? Go sit in a room with 30% CO2 concentration for an hour and let us know how you get on.

Too much Oxygen will also kill you in the right conditions.

[Zynerji]

And the relevance of that is what? CO2 in the blood is what controls respiration, amongst other things, as it affects blood pH. That's well known. It's not relevant to the toxicity (or otherwise) of excess environmental CO2.

Sit in a room with 1% CO2 and you'll find yourself breathing slightly quicker/more deeply. You might feel other symptoms but it won't kill you. Try it at 10-15% CO2 and you'll find yourself feeling unwell fairly quickly and then potentially becoming comatose and dying. Do it in a room with 30% and you'll never even realise as you'll be unconscious in moments and then dead in minutes.

Of course, none of that really matters when discussing the CO2 from cars as it alters CO2 concentrations by hundredths of a percent which makes little difference to anything other than possible global climate change.

CO2 is the "Oxygen" for 98% of Life on Earth.

Its a bit haughty to claim it as a "toxin" or "harmful".

Not harmful? Go sit in a room with 30% CO2 concentration for an hour and let us know how you get on.

Too much Oxygen will also kill you in the right conditions.

Sure, but to call it a "toxin" belittles the vast majority of lifeforms that share this planet.

It come across as the ultimate Entitled Privilege of the Human Race to call it thus.

I definitely appreciate raised CO2 levels in people however. This new study filled in lots of holes for me.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamape ... le/2781743

[Just_a_fan]

CO2 is the "Oxygen" for 98% of Life on Earth.

Its a bit haughty to claim it as a "toxin" or "harmful".

Not harmful? Go sit in a room with 30% CO2 concentration for an hour and let us know how you get on.

Too much Oxygen will also kill you in the right conditions.

Sure, but to call it a "toxin" belittles the vast majority of lifeforms that share this planet.

It come across as the ultimate Entitled Privilege of the Human Race to call it thus.

Is alcohol a toxin? Yes for many animals it is. Humans can take amounts that will kill many other creatures.

A handful of grapes can kill a dog. You could eat a pound and feel nothing.

CO2 in high concentration will kill plenty of animals, will aneathetise many others. It's used as a pre-slaughter device in some parts of the world for this reason.

The climate change deniers in the US use the "CO2 is plant food" argument but it's a straw man.

[nzjrs]

Lol, I think we've drifted off topic [although the relevance of the topic is strongly biased by the cultural and cognitive hegemony of homo sapiens on this fine planet, we must too consult the dolphins concerning the viability of electric cars]

[Zynerji]

Not harmful? Go sit in a room with 30% CO2 concentration for an hour and let us know how you get on.

Too much Oxygen will also kill you in the right conditions.

Sure, but to call it a "toxin" belittles the vast majority of lifeforms that share this planet.

It come across as the ultimate Entitled Privilege of the Human Race to call it thus.

Is alcohol a toxin? Yes for many animals it is. Humans can take amounts that will kill many other creatures.

A handful of grapes can kill a dog. You could eat a pound and feel nothing.

CO2 in high concentration will kill plenty of animals, will aneathetise many others. It's used as a pre-slaughter device in some parts of the world for this reason.

The climate change deniers in the US use the "CO2 is plant food" argument but it's a straw man.

I hear that a lot in the US. Disregarding the most obvious of facts to make way for subjective feelings.

Critical thought, however, keeps one planted in reality.

No plants = No people.

And you call that a straw man?

[nzjrs]

I definitely appreciate raised CO2 levels in people however. This new study filled in lots of holes for me.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamape ... le/2781743

Check out the papers on carbon monoxide and cognition vis a vis open burner fires and substandard heating for a wild ride.

[Zynerji]

I definitely appreciate raised CO2 levels in people however. This new study filled in lots of holes for me.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamape ... le/2781743

Check out the papers on carbon monoxide and cognition vis a vis open burner fires and substandard heating for a wild ride.

I was a victim of a similar issue in my childhood with a woodstove. Had I not collapsed to the floor in our garage and my dog freaking out til dad found me, I would have died...

(In Oswego NY, we opened the garage door inward when we got 6+ feet of snow. Started the woodstove, and shoveled the snow onto the floor to melt and run down the drain. Apparently, the wind/snow messed with the chimney that morning)

[Just_a_fan]

Sure, but to call it a "toxin" belittles the vast majority of lifeforms that share this planet.

It come across as the ultimate Entitled Privilege of the Human Race to call it thus.

Is alcohol a toxin? Yes for many animals it is. Humans can take amounts that will kill many other creatures.

A handful of grapes can kill a dog. You could eat a pound and feel nothing.

CO2 in high concentration will kill plenty of animals, will aneathetise many others. It's used as a pre-slaughter device in some parts of the world for this reason.

The climate change deniers in the US use the "CO2 is plant food" argument but it's a straw man.

I hear that a lot in the US. Disregarding the most obvious of facts to make way for subjective feelings.

Critical thought, however, keeps one planted in reality.

No plants = No people.

And you call that a straw man?

Yes, I call it a straw man because it's used as an argument against control of emissions. Yes plants use CO2, but CO2 has an effect on temperature and that affects things such as the water cycle and other processes.

Has life existed on the planet with higher CO2 levels than today? Yes. Was life different? Yes. Will higher CO2 cause changes to weather patterns? Perhaps. Will that affect humans? Yes probably. Will it mess up your life and mine? Probably nothing more than an inconvenience, but for some people it will be life changing/ending.

[Andres125sx]

Second because ICE emit a lot of toxic substances wich are harmful for humans and any living organism (CO2 is not toxic)

[...]
But agreed that for CO2 coming from cars, it's not really an issue unless sat in a closed garage with the engine running.

Not even in that scenario, CO will kill you long before CO2 becomes a problem, wich basically was the point of my post, ICEs emit a lot more harmful substances than just CO2

This discussion started here when I said CO2 is not toxic, and you replied saying above 10-15% CO2 concentrations will kill you. We may continue with current emissions for several more centuries and atmospheric CO2 will never reach a quarter of that concentration, also the planet would be dead long before that probably so, what´s the point of your argumentation? Sorry but that´s exactly a straw man argument

Any substance in ridiculous proportions is toxic, as you said yourself even oxigen, even vitamins will hurt you if you take an absurd quantity, but that does not mean all substances are toxic. And CO2 is one of those not considered toxic because it is not in any realistic scenario