2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

[sosic2121]

it's what montoya did to Schumacher in Austria, and what Schumacher did to montoya in imola. in both cases faster driver lost because of dirty moves by slower driver.
back then the only penalty was stop and go so it was too harsh. but now we have reasonable penalties and there is no reason why proper racing shouldn't be protected.
all these stories about drivers being committed to the corner is load of bs since these happened on exit while accelerating. if driver is not able to modify his line on exit of the corner, he should be penalised for incompetence.

Also,

Vettel was penalized for overtaking Alonso on the outside of the Curva Grande in Monza in 20(12/13?) for putting his tyres in the grass. Under current interpretations, Alonso would have been penalized for not leaving space instead....

Was he? I remember the incident but I don't remember the penalty.

https://youtu.be/6cWnM6c-prE
Nice of you to mention.
After looking this video can anyone tell me why pushing wide should be allowed!?

[Zynerji]

Also,

Vettel was penalized for overtaking Alonso on the outside of the Curva Grande in Monza in 20(12/13?) for putting his tyres in the grass. Under current interpretations, Alonso would have been penalized for not leaving space instead....

Was he? I remember the incident but I don't remember the penalty.

https://youtu.be/6cWnM6c-prE
Nice of you to mention.
After looking this video can anyone tell me why pushing wide should be allowed!?

I see now. my bad.

[Laserguru]

The driver is unwinding the steering angle to push out the other driver; it's an intention to obstruct the other car.

I disagree, the car is on the limit, the driver can't just simply move over to give the other driver more room, this isn't like passing on the motorway. They are "opening" the steering because that's the direction the car is going, tightening the steering will just result in understeer or oversteer. The only option is to lift off the throttle or use the brakes, which will reduce the load on the tyre and allow the car to turn tighter.

They need to open up because they are accelerating. So as you said, they can lift a bit.
Not saying he should or should not, just that he could.

If you are understeering and hanging on in the corner untill the front picks up at which point you apply the throttle to rotate the car to make the corner you cannot lift a single bit. If you lift you will simply not make the corner and drive off the track beacause the rotation of the car you intended was not completed yet. If this was your aproach to the corner there is just no way to back off. Not by steering, not by braking and not by lifting.

[214270]

I disagree, the car is on the limit, the driver can't just simply move over to give the other driver more room, this isn't like passing on the motorway. They are "opening" the steering because that's the direction the car is going, tightening the steering will just result in understeer or oversteer. The only option is to lift off the throttle or use the brakes, which will reduce the load on the tyre and allow the car to turn tighter.

They need to open up because they are accelerating. So as you said, they can lift a bit.
Not saying he should or should not, just that he could.

If you are understeering and hanging on in the corner untill the front picks up at which point you apply the throttle to rotate the car to make the corner you cannot lift a single bit. If you lift you will simply not make the corner and drive off the track beacause the rotation of the car you intended was not completed yet. If this was your aproach to the corner there is just no way to back off. Not by steering, not by braking and not by lifting.

Someone with some knowledge. Thank you

Once you are locked into a corner that is it. Any decisions about how to manoeuvre the corner needed to have been made long before ie. on approach. It’s the only sensible way.

We’ve not even discussed mental bandwidth, and the physical capability given everything they’re doing and thinking about to further resolve something like this mid-corner.

[dans79]

You seem to be on a mission to render the guy as just average. lol
How many hundreds of races has He participated in and how many cars has he defended against cleanly?
Cleanest driver in the industry undisputedly.

Ah, come on! You really have to keep throwing bait like that, dont you? And then call people haters if they disagree.

Ask Albon, Rosberg and Massa how impeccible HAM's wheel to wheel fighting skills are!

And you're not any different with your constant snide remarks!

[aMessageToCharlie]

You seem to be on a mission to render the guy as just average. lol
How many hundreds of races has He participated in and how many cars has he defended against cleanly?
Cleanest driver in the industry undisputedly.

Ah, come on! You really have to keep throwing bait like that, dont you? And then call people haters if they disagree.

Ask Albon, Rosberg and Massa how impeccible HAM's wheel to wheel fighting skills are!

And you're not any different with your constant snide remarks!

Sure, you're right in the sense that I could just have a chuckle in private and ignore the post.

But imo if people are voicing strong opinions or even marking them as facts as in this case, it's fair game to call them out and provide some evidence to challenge that.

This not throwing dirt at a driver out of the blue. It's a reaction to an imo unreasonable claim.

We have a saying that goes like:
If the reasonable ones always yield, then the... less reasonable ones will rule the world.

[Zynerji]

Ah, come on! You really have to keep throwing bait like that, dont you? And then call people haters if they disagree.

Ask Albon, Rosberg and Massa how impeccible HAM's wheel to wheel fighting skills are!

And you're not any different with your constant snide remarks!

Sure, you're right in the sense that I could just have a chuckle in private and ignore the post.

But imo if people are voicing strong opinions or even marking them as facts as in this case, it's fair game to call them out and provide some evidence to challenge that.

This not throwing dirt at a driver out of the blue. It's a reaction to an imo unreasonable claim.

We have a saying that goes like:
If the reasonable ones always yield, then the... less reasonable ones will rule the world.

Certain drivers/posters are protected from criticism here. I recently served a 30 day ban for falling afoul of this situation on F1Technical.

[ringo]

The driver is unwinding the steering angle to push out the other driver; it's an intention to obstruct the other car.

I disagree, the car is on the limit, the driver can't just simply move over to give the other driver more room, this isn't like passing on the motorway. They are "opening" the steering because that's the direction the car is going, tightening the steering will just result in understeer or oversteer. The only option is to lift off the throttle or use the brakes, which will reduce the load on the tyre and allow the car to turn tighter.

In my view Norris did nothing wrong, he had the racing line. Perez was accelerating around the outside, he saw a closing door and he kept driving in to it.

Interesting question, if there was a tarmac run off area there, would the FIA have handed out a penalty?

No. They can just hold the steering in the same position. The car is not fully at the limit of grip.
If it were at the limit, holding it in the same position would mean the car would still understeer towards the edge of the track.
If you have the luxury of unloading the front axle by opening the steering in the middle of corner and the car is still on track, your car is well withing its limits and balance.
As said above, drivers just dont like being passed on the outside.
Perfect examplr Vettel vs Hamilton in Canada a few years back where Vettel received his penalty. He claimed he "lost grip" and we coupd clearly see he was in full control, using his mirrors to place the car tp block the follower.
So i dont buy what Norris is saying or any other driver doing this move. i am not saying they cannot deffend hard, but use a little bit more precision to close the space enough that the follower has to back out. Case in point Hamilton vs Max this year at Portugal after retaking the lead from Max. Please see race hilights for those who want me to post evidence.
Too many. Hamilton examples to use as how to do this move properly.

[i70q7m7ghw]

The driver is unwinding the steering angle to push out the other driver; it's an intention to obstruct the other car.

I disagree, the car is on the limit, the driver can't just simply move over to give the other driver more room, this isn't like passing on the motorway. They are "opening" the steering because that's the direction the car is going, tightening the steering will just result in understeer or oversteer. The only option is to lift off the throttle or use the brakes, which will reduce the load on the tyre and allow the car to turn tighter.

In my view Norris did nothing wrong, he had the racing line. Perez was accelerating around the outside, he saw a closing door and he kept driving in to it.

Interesting question, if there was a tarmac run off area there, would the FIA have handed out a penalty?

No. They can just hold the steering in the same position. The car is not fully at the limit of grip.
If it were at the limit, holding it in the same position would mean the car would still understeer towards the edge of the track.
If you have the luxury of unloading the front axle by opening the steering in the middle of corner and the car is still on track, your car is well withing its limits and balance.

The car is accelerating, the steering angle will always need to "open" while it accelerates. The limit of grip is not a constant, it's a factor of how much the car is accellerating or braking as well as how much steering angle is applied. The faster the car goes, the less steering angle you can apply before you break adhesion. Pretty basic stuff.

It may sound as simple as "why didn't he just move over", but unfortunately that's not how driving a race car works.

EDIT: What I am saying is specific to this incident i.e. this corner on this track on lap 1 of the race. Sure in other scenarios running the car out wide is a valid tactic to prevent an overtake, but in this example Norris took the racing line at racing speed.

[wogx]

0:30 So you still sayin' that Lando couldn't leave the space, huh?

[Sevach]

The driver is unwinding the steering angle to push out the other driver; it's an intention to obstruct the other car.

I disagree, the car is on the limit, the driver can't just simply move over to give the other driver more room, this isn't like passing on the motorway. They are "opening" the steering because that's the direction the car is going, tightening the steering will just result in understeer or oversteer. The only option is to lift off the throttle or use the brakes, which will reduce the load on the tyre and allow the car to turn tighter.

In my view Norris did nothing wrong, he had the racing line. Perez was accelerating around the outside, he saw a closing door and he kept driving in to it.

Interesting question, if there was a tarmac run off area there, would the FIA have handed out a penalty?

If there's a signifcant portion of a car on the outside(i don't know if that's currently the front axle or the front wing) it's the responsability of the guy inside to allow room for that car.
The car is naturally sliding wide is not a good excuse, that means you are going too fast for the manouver you are suppoused to be doing.

Neither is "he went for outside he took the risk", this ain't defense that's bully tactics.

[dans79]

The driver is unwinding the steering angle to push out the other driver; it's an intention to obstruct the other car.

I disagree, the car is on the limit, the driver can't just simply move over to give the other driver more room, this isn't like passing on the motorway. They are "opening" the steering because that's the direction the car is going, tightening the steering will just result in understeer or oversteer. The only option is to lift off the throttle or use the brakes, which will reduce the load on the tyre and allow the car to turn tighter.

In my view Norris did nothing wrong, he had the racing line. Perez was accelerating around the outside, he saw a closing door and he kept driving in to it.

Interesting question, if there was a tarmac run off area there, would the FIA have handed out a penalty?

If there's a signifcant portion of a car on the outside(i don't know if that's currently the front axle or the front wing) it's the responsability of the guy inside to allow room for that car.
The car is naturally sliding wide is not a good excuse, that means you are going too fast for the manouver you are suppoused to be doing.

Neither is "he went for outside he took the risk", this ain't defense that's bully tactics.

By the rules, that's only required on the straight. The unwritten agreement/rule seems to be if the driver on the outside is ahead at the apex then they should be given space. But various drivers and the stewards seem to have a varying opinion of what ahead means.

[TimW]

Somehow some people seem to believe that Norris could not back out of it, but Perez could....

[ispano6]

Ah, come on! You really have to keep throwing bait like that, dont you? And then call people haters if they disagree.

Ask Albon, Rosberg and Massa how impeccible HAM's wheel to wheel fighting skills are!

And you're not any different with your constant snide remarks!

Sure, you're right in the sense that I could just have a chuckle in private and ignore the post.

But imo if people are voicing strong opinions or even marking them as facts as in this case, it's fair game to call them out and provide some evidence to challenge that.

This not throwing dirt at a driver out of the blue. It's a reaction to an imo unreasonable claim.

We have a saying that goes like:
If the reasonable ones always yield, then the... less reasonable ones will rule the world.

This. Don't worry, it's not a snide remark at all. Some of his fans will turn a blind eye to his offenses when there are clear examples of him ruining people's races, possibly career records. Albon and his two podiums robbed come to mind. Who knows, Albon might still have a race seat if he had those two podiums. Of course, people will come back with their own arguments why Albon doesn't belong. In any case, even good drivers, when on the back foot and desperate to get a podium finish, can make mistakes. What is even more annoying is that the championship wasn't even on the line, a matter of a few points here and there.

[Sieper]

By the way, I think just last week the roles were reversed with lando and Perez (opening laps steiermark) and there was no gravel safari so it s not like it is impossible to prevent, nor bully (always these hyperboles when making a point) when you go for it.