2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

[El Scorchio]

I must admit to being baffled by the arguments for Norris having the right to drive Perez off the track.

But turning to the punishment 5 seconds seems far too lenient. Much better would be to require Norris to allow Perez past. Dropping him to 11th.

As a general rule the driver causing the incident should be relegated to below the driver they affect. If that means a black flag so be it. Then let them race.

I realise that gamesmanship would come in to play were this the rule. In F1 winning is paramount, not being the best.

I like that, actually. The punishment really fits the crime then. Regardless of how many places the innocent party drops, the guilty party has a proportional punishment. Objectively it's not fair at all the wronged driver drops 10-15 places and the other gets a five second penalty which probably equates to 1-2 places at the very most, and probably none at all.

[Sieper]

I think there needs to be a distinction here:

1. If the driver on the inside is ahead, he/she dictates the racing line so he/she can take the racing line even if it means closing the door on the driver who is outside.
2. If the driver on the outside is ahead, he/she dictates the racing line so he/she can hold his/her ground on the outside and force the driver in the inner lane to take a tighter, slower line.

I think the grey area here is where do you check who's ahead. Is it under braking? Is it at the apex? is it on exit? My personal view here as both someone who used to kart and drive some circuit races is to count it from the apex.

So going back, Lewis absolutely deserved the penalty when he hit Albon, because Albon was ahead already. In the case of Lando vs Sergio, I think Lando was ahead on the apex so he should have not been penalized IMO.

This no different to Max vs Charles on turn 3 at this same track. Max dove in the inside and took the apex ahead of Charles, so he dictated the exit and drove Charles off the track.

Me personally, I do not think it is always fair to penalize the driver for taking the inner (racing) line. If the FIA will always penalize the driver on the inside for taking the racing line even if he is ahead by the apex, then any driver can force the driver on the racing line to take a tighter and slower line out. I think that would be unfair as well.

IMO what max did is even worse than what happened in last race. Charles kept the racing line but max crashed him out of the track.

Charles did not keep the racing line at all. You would be on the inside of turn 3. He went to the outside to be able to start accelerating earlier and then slipstream passed max. He gave up the racing line to get better traction. That happened one lap and the next lap Max simply refused to give way again, he claimed the racing line given to him voluntarily by Charles and then committed fully. Charles had the option to yield. And he did not as that was not his plan. He was simply going to outdrag Max lap after lap. Imho that is why the stewards allowed this, because he so obviously and clearly gave up the racing line. But it was a close call how to look at it. Took ages for them to decide.

[politburo]

Thankfully, we can be safe in the knowledge that none of the nonsense suggested in this thread will ever be implemented, because despite their flaws, F1 is run by people that understand racing. Christian Horner even said that Norris shouldn't have been given a penalty.

Probably because he wanted that Mclaren in P2 and not the Merc.

I take Christian's opinions with a grain of salt these days.

I don't think squeezing drivers off is the way to go, but I guess that's the way battles do these days. Unsure if we had such things in the past as in the 90's or earlier.

probably

I remember Schumacher and Montoya pushed each other off the track. Back then only penalty was basically 25s(stop and go 10s) and it was rarely given (probably because it was harsh).

I believe we pushing wide becomes illegal it will not happen as often, but outside attempts will be more frequent.
IMO it leads to much better racing with drivers driving side by side.

It already is illegal by the way they define the rules. Check it out:

[SiLo]

I was glad the drivers got penalties, but I think 5sec is a bit of a joke in some instances.

If there was tarmac there and the driver on the outside completed the overtake, he has to give it back, but the driver that pushed him off the track is not punished. I think it should be a penalty regardless of what the surface is outside the track.

[Sieper]

Thankfully, we can be safe in the knowledge that none of the nonsense suggested in this thread will ever be implemented, because despite their flaws, F1 is run by people that understand racing. Christian Horner even said that Norris shouldn't have been given a penalty.

Probably because he wanted that Mclaren in P2 and not the Merc.

I take Christian's opinions with a grain of salt these days.

I don't think squeezing drivers off is the way to go, but I guess that's the way battles do these days. Unsure if we had such things in the past as in the 90's or earlier.

It always happened but we never had cars more stable (easier to put in places in a controlled fashion) and bigger. In fact, the W11 barely fits the standard 1/18 Minichamps display base anymore. So there is also less room as the tracks are still the same size (mostly).

And yes, Christian was just being strategic there, agreed. Also they did in fact complain to FIA (unstrategically). Either as a habit or to not upset Sergio.

[dans79]

Some of his fans will turn a blind eye to his offenses when there are clear examples of him ruining people's races

You mean something like this?

What? This is not Hamilton? Why bring up a video of someone else? This is pretty weak evidence of Hamilton being squeaky clean. Albon said it best after turn 4, "Sore Loser"!

I was just pointing out what I believe is an intentionally biased/one sided post. If you go back to that season in this very forum you will find countless posts saying the actions of the driver above was perfectly acceptable or clean, or posts that imply it.

I mean he did it so many times that season the FIA implemented a rule that the press nicknamed after the driver, you can easily search for it.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/39362780

[Datco]

As a RBR supporter I don't think the penalty was fair. In this particular case it was about Lando having the racing line that cuts across the track. Why should anybody give up the racing line just because someone does a dive bomb. What if the track was wet but just had the drier racing line. I equate this to Bottas.. Russel incident earlier this year were Bottas was entitled to the racing line that cut across the track

[piast9]

As a RBR supporter I don't think the penalty was fair. In this particular case it was about Lando having the racing line that cuts across the track. Why should anybody give up the racing line just because someone does a dive bomb. What if the track was wet but just had the drier racing line. I equate this to Bottas.. Russel incident earlier this year were Bottas was entitled to the racing line that cut across the track

^^^ That. I am of the same opinion and that's why I find the Norris' penalty as not so obvious. Penalizing the drivers holding their lines may encourage divebombing into corners.

[Sieper]

Look at the whole action. Start to look before corner 4 entry. Perez was well in front at the braking zone. He didn’t “dive bomb”, if anything it was Norris braking himself back. So if you feel the need to put this Derogatory label on the action at all, why give it to Perez.

[Zynerji]

PS: For those with F1TV, its 2011 Monza @ 17 minute...

Easy find this way !
Insane he got penalized .. balls of steel

*edit*
It indeed seems there was no penalty at all ?

I was mistaken, and admitted such in an earlier post.

[Marty_Y]

Some of his fans will turn a blind eye to his offenses when there are clear examples of him ruining people's races

You mean something like this?

What? This is not Hamilton? Why bring up a video of someone else? This is pretty weak evidence of Hamilton being squeaky clean. Albon said it best after turn 4, "Sore Loser"!

That's exactly what Daniel Riccardo said about Max!

[Big Tea]

Is the real problem here what was outside the 'kerb area'?
Had it been grass, a runoff, or tarmac say, would it not have just been a second of so delay to Checo and Norris told on the radio to let him past and both got on with the race?
As it was, Checo lost several seconds and positions and the damage was permanent and swapping never an option.

[sosic2121]

Probably because he wanted that Mclaren in P2 and not the Merc.

I take Christian's opinions with a grain of salt these days.

I don't think squeezing drivers off is the way to go, but I guess that's the way battles do these days. Unsure if we had such things in the past as in the 90's or earlier.

probably

I remember Schumacher and Montoya pushed each other off the track. Back then only penalty was basically 25s(stop and go 10s) and it was rarely given (probably because it was harsh).

I believe we pushing wide becomes illegal it will not happen as often, but outside attempts will be more frequent.
IMO it leads to much better racing with drivers driving side by side.

It already is illegal by the way they define the rules. Check it out:

https://i.imgur.com/3rVgihR.png

wow!
you are right. what are we even talking about here!?

[dans79]

probably

I remember Schumacher and Montoya pushed each other off the track. Back then only penalty was basically 25s(stop and go 10s) and it was rarely given (probably because it was harsh).

I believe we pushing wide becomes illegal it will not happen as often, but outside attempts will be more frequent.
IMO it leads to much better racing with drivers driving side by side.

It already is illegal by the way they define the rules. Check it out:

https://i.imgur.com/3rVgihR.png

wow!
you are right. what are we even talking about here!?

That's not actually correct, as those rules are aimed at defensive maneuvers on the strait. Hence why it has the bit about "on the approach to the corner". This imo, is just another case of the FIA and the stewards doing a crappy job defining the rules, and applying them.

[aMessageToCharlie]

You mean something like this?

What? This is not Hamilton? Why bring up a video of someone else? This is pretty weak evidence of Hamilton being squeaky clean. Albon said it best after turn 4, "Sore Loser"!

That's exactly what Daniel Riccardo said about Max!

Who cares what Daniel said about Max and how is it relevant?

I didnt see anyone claim Max, or Daniel being the "Cleanest driver in the industry undisputedly". Or did I miss something?

Please move along.