2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

[politburo]

It already is illegal by the way they define the rules. Check it out:

https://i.imgur.com/3rVgihR.png

wow!
you are right. what are we even talking about here!?

That's not actually correct, as those rules are aimed at defensive maneuvers on the strait. Hence why it has the bit about "on the approach to the corner". This imo, is just another case of the FIA and the stewards doing a crappy job defining the rules, and applying them.

Check the last part in point 2b), which concerns crowding (moving another driver off the edge of the track), and blocking. It is is by this basis, that the race steards penalised Lawson for crowding and blocking Pourchaire in the F2 Feature Race in Azerbaijan on the exit of the first corner on the first lap.

[RaceFan1]

If the battle had been reversed and Norris / McLaren had been forced off track, at least half the calls for the penalty being unfair or too harsh would be gone. Norris can't say he didn't see Perez next to him in that corner. He can't say he clearly "Had' the corner. Perez should have had room to race in that corner.

Things would have been different if there was a wall next to the track.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/67124 ... cher-hill/

If you want to see racers beating and banging on each other, go to a lower form of motorsport. I'd prefer to see world class drivers race wheel to wheel with respect for each other. Forcing someone off the track has been frown upon in the past. Now it only seems right or wrong depending on the driver or team's nationality and if they are delivering the hit or receiving the hit.

[politburo]

Furthermore, the spirit of the rule (No. 2b and c) seems to ensure that the drivers don't leave the track, and there are penalties handed out when the driver that goes off-track gains an advantage against another driver (track limits discussions), or if that driver was pushed off the track by another driver (crowding). The issue with the FIA is they often apply these penalties inconsistently from one tack to another, but in Austria they were consistent with applying this type of rule

[dans79]

Furthermore, the spirit of the rule (No. 2b and c) seems to ensure that the drivers don't leave the track, and there are penalties handed out when the driver that goes off-track gains an advantage against another driver (track limits discussions), or if that driver was pushed off the track by another driver (crowding). The issue with the FIA is they often apply these penalties inconsistently from one tack to another, but in Austria they were consistent with applying this type of rule

IMO, the technical and sporting regulations need to be re-written from scratch so they make sense and aren't full of so many loopholes.

Across the course of the season drivers see a large range of corners. On some corners its a bad idea to run up the inside, because you are then vulnerable to being pushed of in the next corner (think chicanes, Monza turn 1/2 for example). In other corners it's a bad idea to go around the outside as you will just get squeezed out do to the natural trajectory of the cars and the layout of the turn (Cota Turn 1 for example).

What the FIA needs is one or two rules that clearly and simply explains who is supposed to yield, when they are supposed to yield, and why.

[Ryar]

wow!
you are right. what are we even talking about here!?

That's not actually correct, as those rules are aimed at defensive maneuvers on the strait. Hence why it has the bit about "on the approach to the corner". This imo, is just another case of the FIA and the stewards doing a crappy job defining the rules, and applying them.

Check the last part in point 2b), which concerns crowding (moving another driver off the edge of the track), and blocking. It is is by this basis, that the race steards penalised Lawson for crowding and blocking Pourchaire in the F2 Feature Race in Azerbaijan on the exit of the first corner on the first lap.

There are clear rules that describe the need for leaving a car's width of space while cornering, if the car behind has it's front wing alongside the rear wheel of the car ahead. It was the repeated pushing off track by Lewis in 2014, which forced Nico to become adamant and not back off from the corner in Spa, that then caused puncture and virtually ended Lewis' race. Vice versa in Austria 2016.

Drivers have taken it for granted that, pushing a driver off track is OK to stop an overtake from the outside, which is extremely bad for racing. It's a good indication if Race Director and Stewards can make the punishment normal and not an exception to set right what has been wrong for a very long time. As Alonso had said, "you have to leave space all the time!".

[El Scorchio]

If the battle had been reversed and Norris / McLaren had been forced off track, at least half the calls for the penalty being unfair or too harsh would be gone. Norris can't say he didn't see Perez next to him in that corner. He can't say he clearly "Had' the corner. Perez should have had room to race in that corner.

Things would have been different if there was a wall next to the track.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/67124 ... cher-hill/

If you want to see racers beating and banging on each other, go to a lower form of motorsport. I'd prefer to see world class drivers race wheel to wheel with respect for each other. Forcing someone off the track has been frown upon in the past. Now it only seems right or wrong depending on the driver or team's nationality and if they are delivering the hit or receiving the hit.

Hear hear. It seems most of the time these days, people's opinion of whether someone or something is right or wrong is entirely dictated by who they are, the car they are sitting in, or what country they come from.

The handy thing about this situation is that Perez also did the same thing to Leclerc as Norris did to him, so they are either both equally to blame or equally blameless for their actions. You would think though, that Perez might have avoided doing the same thing to someone else that Norris did to him.

FWIW I thought both penalties were a bit harsh at the time for what some might call a racing incident, but completely understand why they were given and I am glad there at least was consistency in the decision making surrounding each incident.

[Sieper]

Here is last weeks (so Styria, not Austria) race that shows it is perfectly possible to go round the outside in turn 4, also for the inside man to yield, give room.

Here it is Perez doing that for Norris. Starts (with run up) at the 25 second mark.

[dans79]

Here is last weeks race that shows it is perfectly possible to go round the outside in turn 4, also for the inside man to yield, give room.

Here it is Perez doing that for Norris. Starts at the 20 second mark.

Imo, Perez didn't have a choice there, as I think Lewis was blocking him to ensure Lando got a good run on him!

[Sieper]

That is true. Lewis was smart there, the choice for Perez was off the table. but even so, people were saying it is impossible for the inside line driver not to end up on the kerbs and I always hate these oversimplifications. Even when we have to look just one week back for evidence against it.

[dans79]

but even so, people were saying it is impossible for the inside line driver not to end up on the kerbs and I always hate these oversimplifications.

It's very much situation dependent imo. How much speed did they carry into the turn, how tight a line did they take, how close are other cars, how used are their tires etc etc.

IMO, the FIA really needs to clean up the passing/defending rules.

[Sieper]

It is Very situation dependent indeed. That is also why imho stewards need to look at it case by case. And we will have to accept some interpretation and thus not full “consistency” as no situation is ever completely identical. Last week indeed the entry speed, level of aggressiveness for Sergio could not be very high, as he was outmanouvred by Lewis, this week Sergio made it work round the outside, but Lando braked himself back into the corner from very far back. But he left a tad too little room imho. Should have brushed off a bit more speed. Now a fair (yet slightly risky) move by Sergio cost him the race (a top placement) and That is why the relatively small 5 sec penalty was given.

[langedweil]

PS: For those with F1TV, its 2011 Monza @ 17 minute...

Easy find this way !
Insane he got penalized .. balls of steel

*edit*
It indeed seems there was no penalty at all ?

I was mistaken, and admitted such in an earlier post.

No worries ..

[ringo]

Thankfully, we can be safe in the knowledge that none of the nonsense suggested in this thread will ever be implemented, because despite their flaws, F1 is run by people that understand racing. Christian Horner even said that Norris shouldn't have been given a penalty.

Horner will say anything that puts space between him and mercedes getting more points.

To keep things simple.. You cannot drive your car into a space occupied by another car. That is a penalty. It cannot get any simpler than that. It doesnt matter who is ahead or behind. If willfully changing your car's trajectory in an attempt to intercept a car that is already occupying the space results in a crash, you are at fault.
I would give Lando a pass if after staying left his car was still ahead of Perez's car. But turning left and colliding.. that's not defending. That is ramming off the track.

[dans79]

Thankfully, we can be safe in the knowledge that none of the nonsense suggested in this thread will ever be implemented, because despite their flaws, F1 is run by people that understand racing. Christian Horner even said that Norris shouldn't have been given a penalty.

Horner will say anything that puts space between him and mercedes getting more points.

Exactly!

[RaceFan1]

To keep things simple.. You cannot drive your car into a space occupied by another car. That is a penalty. It cannot get any simpler than that. It doesnt matter who is ahead or behind. If willfully changing your car's trajectory in an attempt to intercept a car that is already occupying the space results in a crash, you are at fault.
I would give Lando a pass if after staying left his car was still ahead of Perez's car. But turning left and colliding.. that's not defending. That is ramming off the track.

Should Perez have held a line that would have kept his car on the "racing surface" and let Lando run into him? Same for Charles LeClerc and Perez?