Mercedes W12

[SiLo]

I think it's not just the rear brake ducts. Having a bigger impact on low rake cars has meant they are years behind the higher rake ones when it comes to tricks with sealing the diffuser. That, plus the fact that Red Bull are clearly understanding their car better contributes to a big shift in the car performance.

Can someone help my understand how the rear brake ducts are an issue for Mercedes? Was it because they were more reliant on them to seal the diffuser?

[El Scorchio]

I think the fact that RBR has a better understanding of the car also causes the fact that they are bringing a lot more (small) updates.

In previous years it was the other way around with Mercedes bringing small updates almost every race and was RBR the ones with less but bigger updates if my memory serves me right

I'm don't think it's (lack of) understanding of the car. I'm sure they know exactly in theory what it would take to claw back all the loss and maybe more, but it's risk/reward in terms of what performance they can actually gain given the tight restrictions on what they are allowed to change on the car from 2020-21, and what resource/finance they can allocate to it.

The philosophy of the car is a fundamental mismatch (compared to others) with this year's rules stripping it of downforce, and putting little aero trinkets on it is likely to be a waste of time and money as it's likely to only gain a tenth here or there. They need something massive to the tune of 0.5 of a second to make it worthwhile. Maybe that's what is coming with the one off upgrade, but I don't think anyone should hold their breath unless they've figured out a way to cure their endemic lack of downforce and can stop running huge wings. For RBR it's well worth trying to find the extra tenth or so with small aero upgrades because that's going to bring them the titles. For MB, all it's going to do is make them a closer runner up which simply isn't worth it given the need for 2022 development.

The unique circumstances of this season's rules just hasn't worked out for them, and there's probably very little they can do to change or adapt to them.

But that doesn't explain why they brought these small changes in the past even though they had quiete something in the bag without those updates?

Are you talking in 2021 or in past seasons?

[dans79]

Can someone help my understand how the rear brake ducts are an issue for Mercedes? Was it because they were more reliant on them to seal the diffuser?

check this out!

[dans79]

But that doesn't explain why they brought these small changes in the past even though they had quiete something in the bag without those updates?

The small little things they have done so far this year, and the massive rear wing, are duct tape solutions to get them by till they could come up with something better.

[darkpino]

I'm don't think it's (lack of) understanding of the car. I'm sure they know exactly in theory what it would take to claw back all the loss and maybe more, but it's risk/reward in terms of what performance they can actually gain given the tight restrictions on what they are allowed to change on the car from 2020-21, and what resource/finance they can allocate to it.

The philosophy of the car is a fundamental mismatch (compared to others) with this year's rules stripping it of downforce, and putting little aero trinkets on it is likely to be a waste of time and money as it's likely to only gain a tenth here or there. They need something massive to the tune of 0.5 of a second to make it worthwhile. Maybe that's what is coming with the one off upgrade, but I don't think anyone should hold their breath unless they've figured out a way to cure their endemic lack of downforce and can stop running huge wings. For RBR it's well worth trying to find the extra tenth or so with small aero upgrades because that's going to bring them the titles. For MB, all it's going to do is make them a closer runner up which simply isn't worth it given the need for 2022 development.

The unique circumstances of this season's rules just hasn't worked out for them, and there's probably very little they can do to change or adapt to them.

But that doesn't explain why they brought these small changes in the past even though they had quiete something in the bag without those updates?

Are you talking in 2021 or in past seasons?

Pst seasons, this year they didn’t bring that much upgrades if I’m not mistaken

[Stormblessed]

I think Silverstone car upgrade potential may not be realized fully at the next race, given the new format and only one hour of free practice. Going to be hectic as they have to setup the car and test the new upgrades all within one hour of practice. Add to that, new tire construction I believe from next race.

[El Scorchio]

But that doesn't explain why they brought these small changes in the past even though they had quiete something in the bag without those updates?

Are you talking in 2021 or in past seasons?

Pst seasons, this year they didn’t bring that much upgrades if I’m not mistaken

Gotcha. Past seasons are pretty different- they were always well in the title fight against rivals also developing their cars, so they had to carry on finding those extra tenths to stay ahead, and of course there was no budget cap, no huge reg change like 2022 coming to get right, and no massive prohibitions put on how and what you can actually develop, so they can't really make any changes to address their fundamental problem which is that sudden massive lack of downforce. I'm sure with no restriction on money, time and development avenues, they'd have made a hefty redesign to the rear of the car at least- maybe to much more of it.

I think what it boils down to is that in those seasons it was eminently worth it, and this season it isn't. Don't in those seasons where they have been fortunate enough to be quite far ahead in championships and on the road, they have also curtailed development. I would guess they are far enough behind this season to know they aren't realistically catching RBR unless they have been saving an absolute gamechanger, and far enough ahead of the other teams to know they aren't getting caught so spending any extra money and resource on 2021 is a bit of a pointless waste when it can go toward next season. My hunch is they know there's nothing they can really do to the W12 within the rules which is going to put it on a par with or ahead of the RB16B

[b2bL44]

I think Silverstone car upgrade potential may not be realized fully at the next race, given the new format and only one hour of free practice. Going to be hectic as they have to setup the car and test the new upgrades all within one hour of practice. Add to that, new tire construction I believe from next race.

I suspect that Bottas and Hamilton were at the factory not only using the sim for better setup for Austria but to test and tweak the W12 with the incoming updates.

In a close season battle that we are having this year I personally don't trust anything that is being said. There are small morsels of truth being dropped here and there, the rest is smoke and mirrors.

[Stormblessed]

I suspect that Bottas and Hamilton were at the factory not only using the sim for better setup for Austria but to test and tweak the W12 with the incoming updates.

In a close season battle that we are having this year I personally don't trust anything that is being said. There are small morsels of truth being dropped here and there, the rest is smoke and mirrors.

Ya highly possible. If that's the case, hope the correlations between sim and on track response of the car. Fact that HAM and BOT are doing the sim work can only help.

[atanatizante]

Can someone help my understand how the rear brake ducts are an issue for Mercedes? Was it because they were more reliant on them to seal the diffuser?

check this out!

Are they allowed to bend upwards the back end of the diffuser floor (like a big Gurney flap) in order to close the gap between the brake duct winglets and diffuser floor? Or it could induce a bigger drag than down force gain through this method?

[dans79]

Can someone help my understand how the rear brake ducts are an issue for Mercedes? Was it because they were more reliant on them to seal the diffuser?

check this out!

Are they allowed to bend upwards the back end of the diffuser floor (like a big Gurney flap) in order to close the gap between the brake duct winglets and diffuser floor? Or it could induce a bigger drag than down force gain through this method?

I don't think that would really help, as what the 2020 brake ducts where doing was preventing tire squirt from entering the diffuser area further forward.

[dans79]

I couldn't find a good image of the W11, but hear is one of the W10.

Those massive winglets at the bottom of the duct assembly aren't allowed anymore, They can't be as wide or as low as pictured. All they did was shoot air down between the tire and diffuser to prevent tire squirt from entering the diffuser areas.



Edit:
here is the w09 from the back showing how big they are.

[atanatizante]

I`ve read on another forum that this new rear brake drum/tin cake design was tested only in FP1 when they used the new rear tyre that it`ll use at Silverstone. The results were that they went first and second on the timesheets with one caveat: track temperatures were some 20 degrees lower than in FP2 and the race, but it`ll be likely to see them at Silverstone ...

[dans79]

http://postimg.cc/CnT9wmFV

I`ve read on another forum that this new rear brake drum/tin cake design was tested only in FP1 when they used the new rear tyre that it`ll use at Silverstone. The results were that they went first and second on the timesheets with one caveat: track temperatures were some 20 degrees lower than in FP2 and the race, but it`ll be likely to see them at Silverstone ...

They were 1st and 2nd in FP2, in FP1 they were 4th and 7th.

[MartijnA3]

Can someone help my understand how the rear brake ducts are an issue for Mercedes? Was it because they were more reliant on them to seal the diffuser?

check this out!

Thanks for that, I knew I had heard the brake duct theory somewhere before. This clears it all up for me.

The gap they're talking about was clearly visible in Austria on the Merc, no gap with RBR. Left RB16b, right W12: