2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Kingshark]

Until Red Bull actually begin racking up front row lockouts and 1-2 finishes, that’s when we can begin to use the word dominant.

As it stands right now, the current RB16B is no better than the Mercedes cars of 2017 and 2018.

[etusch]

Until Red Bull actually begin racking up front row lockouts and 1-2 finishes, that’s when we can begin to use the word dominant.

As it stands right now, the current RB16B is no better than the Mercedes cars of 2017 and 2018.

think it in the other way. in the times when merc do good car but rivals couldn't, being 1-2 is easy. but that merc are still good and you catched up them at that level, then, when you start to beat them, it is not that easy to be 1-2 anymore
And if Redbull beat the car that you see as best car, then absolutely Redbull car is better car.

[Dee]

Until Red Bull actually begin racking up front row lockouts and 1-2 finishes, that’s when we can begin to use the word dominant.

As it stands right now, the current RB16B is no better than the Mercedes cars of 2017 and 2018.

think it in the other way. in the times when merc do good car but rivals couldn't, being 1-2 is easy. but that merc are still good and you catched up them at that level, then, when you start to beat them, it is not that easy to be 1-2 anymore
And if Redbull beat the car that you see as best car, then absolutely Redbull car is better car.

There is a difference between having a better car and having a dominant car. A dominant car means that your 2nd driver ends up ahead of the rival teams 2nd driver in qualy or in the race. As Perez has been doing neither for the majority of the season so far, then I don't think that you can call it a dominant car

[cheeRS]

Is it weird that I am a bit ticked off but that “dominant car” talk now that Max won a few races? When have Max and checo qualified P1 and P2 by a second on any non redbull car? Never. In fact, it was mostly just Max followed by 2 mercedesses so far. Last season we had several time Merc on 1 and 2, sometimes even by over a second.

I hope they can indeed turn also this deficit around.

Only replying since you asked for it. Dominant is certainly subjective here. If a car wins every race by .25 sec it's still considered dominant, just as one that wins by 10 sec every race.

Two things are true for any reasonable F1 fan:

1. Max is top tier, and definitely better than Checo overall
2. The RBR16B has proven to be the better car, at least up until now.

You can say what you want about Lewis' skill or whether it's just the car, but the fact is that rarely, rarely will any driver out qualify him by a large margin unless the car is clearly better. In France/Austria/Styria, Merc barely stood a chance. To me, that's dominant, as it probably is to most reasonable fans.

In Styrian GP, Red Bull outqualified the next best car (Mercedes) by 0.194. In Austrian GP, Red Bull outqualified the next best car (McLaren) by 0.48. These are margins, traditionlly considered to be closely matched cars. Don't discount that the McLaren car wasn't good. No good car can qualify on the front row by such a thin margin. Being unable to manage the tyres in races, is a different proposition.

The other major factor that need to be considered, which often is getting ignored is, a driver in his late 30s, can't be as quick as a driver in his early 20s. That's just human anatomy. Lewis used to be ultra quick in his early 20s, where he used to pull some stunning qualifying laps that used to surprise a clinical operator like Button (by his own admission). So, who knows, if Max is put in that Mercedes, he might be producing the same results that he is producing with RB16B. Any margin less than 3 tenths, a greater driver can overcome with his own skills, like Alonso used to do in the RB dominance days to come close to beating Seb. A margin less than 3 tenths, it's hard to distinguish if it the car or the driver that is making the difference.

The difference, IMHO, is, Max is aruguably the best driver on the grid. He is young, has matured faster than any other F1 driver of any generation and has a competitive car, with which he is making the difference. May be a younger Lewis in the W12, could have been spoiling the party for Max in qualifying, where every last hundredth matter. Look at Federer in the past 5 years, he was the same guy that used to beat anyone in his way, but is a pale shadow of his former self. Same with Rossi. The dominant Mercedes cars of the past few years, have obviously masked the physical degradation of a driver like Lewis. No offense, he is still a top quality, but just not the same like in his 20s. So, it may not be so much with the cars after all.

To be honest, I agree that much of what you stated is logical and reasonable. At the same time, it's also quite hypothetical. Even more, the comparison between Hamilton and Rossi/Federer is extremely apples to oranges. MotoGP and tennis are incredible physical disciplines when compared with F1 or racecar driving in general, much, much more physically demanding. Thus, it's much more logical that old(ish) age will affect the those diciplines more.

Look at Schumacher's age during his Ferrari WDC years - basically the same as Lewis and he was well known for his physical prowess during that time.

Lewis is also dominating a considerably younger teammate.

This is deviating from the main point though, so let's return: The RBR16B is the better car, at least up until this point. I say that because perhaps the last 5 tracks have favored the RBR more and Silverstone will give a better picture - we'll see.

For instance, look at these (fantastically made BTW) 'ghost' videos of qualifying. The RBR matches the Merc in the corners and positively pulls away on the straights. Don't just take my word for it - Martin Brundle has made basically the same observation.

[etusch]

Until Red Bull actually begin racking up front row lockouts and 1-2 finishes, that’s when we can begin to use the word dominant.

As it stands right now, the current RB16B is no better than the Mercedes cars of 2017 and 2018.

think it in the other way. in the times when merc do good car but rivals couldn't, being 1-2 is easy. but that merc are still good and you catched up them at that level, then, when you start to beat them, it is not that easy to be 1-2 anymore
And if Redbull beat the car that you see as best car, then absolutely Redbull car is better car.

There is a difference between having a better car and having a dominant car. A dominant car means that your 2nd driver ends up ahead of the rival teams 2nd driver in qualy or in the race. As Perez has been doing neither for the majority of the season so far, then I don't think that you can call it a dominant car

I see your point, maybe saying "a mid level driver can achieve p2 in Q with a dominant car" explains it better but this and what you said also, hits hamilton too. I agree with that but many people in this forum will feel pain with this.

[darkpino]

In my opinion if either Lewis or Max wouldn’t be with the teams they are now, the team losing there first driver (so RBR being Max and Mercedes being Lewis) wouldn’t probably be even in a championship fight as both Perez and Bottas aren’t even close to beating their rival team first drivers. So saying either of the cars is dominant is really hard in my opinion. I think both are extremely close to each other

[Just_a_fan]

think it in the other way. in the times when merc do good car but rivals couldn't, being 1-2 is easy. but that merc are still good and you catched up them at that level, then, when you start to beat them, it is not that easy to be 1-2 anymore
And if Redbull beat the car that you see as best car, then absolutely Redbull car is better car.

There is a difference between having a better car and having a dominant car. A dominant car means that your 2nd driver ends up ahead of the rival teams 2nd driver in qualy or in the race. As Perez has been doing neither for the majority of the season so far, then I don't think that you can call it a dominant car

I see your point, maybe saying "a mid level driver can achieve p2 in Q with a dominant car" explains it better but this and what you said also, hits hamilton too. I agree with that but many people in this forum will feel pain with this.

If car is A is 0.25s faster than car B, and car A and B driver pairs are each 0.3s apart, then car B's faster driver can be P2 and his team mate P4. Car A is still the dominant car if it wins lots of races.

Car A driver A = 0s
Car B driver A = 0.25s
Car A driver B = +0.3s
Car B driver B = +0.55s

We know that, on average, Max and Lewis is noticeably quicker than his respective team mate. So above is one reason.

Of course, Max could be 0.25s quicker than Lewis and the cars are the same.

We can't know what the real performance relationship is between drivers in different cars because, well, they're in different cars.

[Dee]

There is a difference between having a better car and having a dominant car. A dominant car means that your 2nd driver ends up ahead of the rival teams 2nd driver in qualy or in the race. As Perez has been doing neither for the majority of the season so far, then I don't think that you can call it a dominant car

I see your point, maybe saying "a mid level driver can achieve p2 in Q with a dominant car" explains it better but this and what you said also, hits hamilton too. I agree with that but many people in this forum will feel pain with this.

If car is A is 0.25s faster than car B, and car A and B driver pairs are each 0.3s apart, then car B's faster driver can be P2 and his team mate P4. Car A is still the dominant car if it wins lots of races.

Car A driver A = 0s
Car B driver A = 0.25s
Car A driver B = +0.3s
Car B driver B = +0.55s

We know that, on average, Max and Lewis is noticeably quicker than his respective team mate. So above is one reason.

Of course, Max could be 0.25s quicker than Lewis and the cars are the same.

We can't know what the real performance relationship is between drivers in different cars because, well, they're in different cars.

"Car A is still the dominant car if it wins lots of races"

Here is my thing with that. If a car wins multiple podiums and races with only one of the drivers, than it's the driver making a difference. If both drivers are podiuming and winning multiple times then the car is dominant, in my view.

Lewis and Max are far ahead of their teammates, that is known, yet Bottas is on average the higher qualifier and the higher finisher this year, even though the Mercedes had a rocky start.

Perez is getting used to the car, I get that but he did not end up on the podium during either of the two Austrian races when Max won by over 17 seconds...

Some tracks have suited Merc, some have suited RB with it swinging RB's way recently.

I'm just interested to see what happens this wkd. I think the cars will be far closer together, performance wise

[Zynerji]

Rewatched the 1987 Brittish GP on F1TV. And THAT is a display of a dominant car.

What we have now between Mercedes and RedBull is exponentially tighter than that season. Just listening to James Hunt's commentary makes it obvious that there were no competitors on the grid for that Williams, making any currently applicable statements to this end simply hyperbolic.

[Just_a_fan]

Rewatched the 1987 Brittish GP on F1TV. And THAT is a display of a dominant car.

What we have now between Mercedes and RedBull is exponentially tighter than that season. Just listening to James Hunt's commentary makes it obvious that there were no competitors on the grid for that Williams, making any currently applicable statements to this end simply hyperbolic.

Yes, over a second a lap ahead in qualifying and lapped everyone up to and including 3rd place. That's "in a race of its own, crushingly dominant", not just dominant.

[etusch]

I see your point, maybe saying "a mid level driver can achieve p2 in Q with a dominant car" explains it better but this and what you said also, hits hamilton too. I agree with that but many people in this forum will feel pain with this.

If car is A is 0.25s faster than car B, and car A and B driver pairs are each 0.3s apart, then car B's faster driver can be P2 and his team mate P4. Car A is still the dominant car if it wins lots of races.

Car A driver A = 0s
Car B driver A = 0.25s
Car A driver B = +0.3s
Car B driver B = +0.55s

We know that, on average, Max and Lewis is noticeably quicker than his respective team mate. So above is one reason.

Of course, Max could be 0.25s quicker than Lewis and the cars are the same.

We can't know what the real performance relationship is between drivers in different cars because, well, they're in different cars.

"Car A is still the dominant car if it wins lots of races"

Here is my thing with that. If a car wins multiple podiums and races with only one of the drivers, than it's the driver making a difference. If both drivers are podiuming and winning multiple times then the car is dominant, in my view.

Lewis and Max are far ahead of their teammates, that is known, yet Bottas is on average the higher qualifier and the higher finisher this year, even though the Mercedes had a rocky start.

Perez is getting used to the car, I get that but he did not end up on the podium during either of the two Austrian races when Max won by over 17 seconds...

Some tracks have suited Merc, some have suited RB with it swinging RB's way recently.

I'm just interested to see what happens this wkd. I think the cars will be far closer together, performance wise

When we consider what other driver lived with Redbull;
- what we must expect if bottas were drive a Redbull (my answer he would be worse than Albon and Gasly too while perez doing better job compared to Alb and Gas.
Perez could be easily on podium if he didn't make Lando mistake. so second race mistake is maybe another pressure, maybe he didn't want to allow Verstappen get away while he stuck with Lando. His issue was not speed)
- what we must expect if ham were drive Redbull along with Verstappen (my answer he would be more or less same with perez )

ıf we apply this to Mercedes, if bottas even can beat ham, Verstappen would make ham a clear second driver.

We know how fast ricciardo but he is not doing good with McLaren now. but Lando does good. So if both driver of a team drives a car at a level , there is a possiblity that they show the car worse than the car's actuall level. If both McLaren driver were perform at level of ricciardo we would think about McLaren that they build a bad car.
This can applicable to my assumptions above and it is possible that ham and bottas suit better to Redbull car and perform better.
And this also means that we can not be sure about everyone with their performans because of car effects.
I think if a driver is good when small gaps make difference and he can get results in this tight situation he is better driver.
I think perez also doing very good Job because he drove midlevel cars so long and now he is in period of fimilerising a wdc winner car and still not bad. that is very good for him.

[etusch]

2022 car concept with Redbull Honda livery

[Zynerji]

2022 car concept with Redbull Honda livery

https://www.instagram.com/p/CRYu0g7IMsb ... =copy_link

The Alpha Tauri white hubcaps and front wheel deflector (can we call it the fender yet?) are my absolute favorite!

[godlameroso]

I'm coming around, there's a lot of little details that could be improved with this car, and if you add them all up they may add up to something that transforms this baseline car to something more "Red Bull".

[bosyber]

2022 car concept with Redbull Honda livery

https://www.instagram.com/p/CRYu0g7IMsb ... =copy_link

The Alpha Tauri white hubcaps and front wheel deflector (can we call it the fender yet?) are my absolute favorite!

Yeah, that one looks good. I really hope the Red Bull do something interesting with their real nose, or reduce the amount of yellow by a lot, because that nose looks like a very big sausage kerb like this!