2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[Jolle]

That Murray (and AM) sell a small run of V12’s, good for them. But the cars with a bit of production capacity are all going V6.

Strangely the Honda NSX Hybrid with the V6 twin-turbo has had extremely poor sales, being outsold by the Audi R8 with an archaic, dinosaur V10 engine and no hybrid system. It's rather inexplicable.

McLaren is more obvious... V6TH.

McLaren are claiming 129 g CO2/km, which is very impressive.

The McLaren Artura is a guilt-free £185,500 hybrid supercar

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/lifestyle ... ra-preview

Interestingly, the likes of fashion magazines like GQ seem to be more understanding of the importance of CO2/km than the likes of Evo magazine who seem to rarely mention it.

Maybe the NSX just hasn’t got the appeal ?

If I had the money. It would be very low on my list, nothing to do with how it’s powered.

I would go for a F6T Porsche 911

[gruntguru]

Yep, Gordon Murray had no problem pre-selling his production run of GMA-T50 including amazing Cosworth V12.

It seems baffling that Murray would choose such an outdated "dinosaur" ICE, when it could have been a nice battery EV or a least a twin-turbo V6 hybrid like the Honda NSX or Ferrari 296.

Heck the T50 even has a H-pattern manual transmission. Manuals tend to do poorly in WLTP fuel economy testing, as the manufacturer can not precisely control when gear ratios are chosen, nor ensure the vehicle reaches the highest gear ratio ASAP.

It's almost if Murray is using GMA's low-volume exemption from EU WLTP as an excuse to blatantly ignore the 95 g CO2/km fleet average which car manufacturers like GMA should strive to achieve even when they are not legally obliged to under low-volume exemptions...

You need to watch one of the many You Tube videos where Murray explains exactly why the engine and transmission are what they are. Makes perfect sense.

[JordanMugen]

You need to watch one of the many You Tube videos where Murray explains exactly why the engine and transmission are what they are. Makes perfect sense.

The impression I got was it was just because it's what he likes -- snappy free-revving NA engine, manual transmission etc? (It's what I like too.)

Not because it actually offers more efficiency than a V6 twin-turbo paired with a dual-clutch automatic like say the Ford GT?

The T50 doesn't seem to be designed with minimum CO2 emissions as the first priority.

I would go for a F6T Porsche 911

There is no way I would go for the 911 Turbo over a naturally aspirated GT3, or better still a Lotus Evora or old Ferrari 430 or 458. I don't see the fun in driving something that doesn't have to revved out to the redline?

I hate the way turbocharged ICEs make the relationship between rpm and power output dependent on the extra variable of boost pressure.

[gruntguru]

You need to watch one of the many You Tube videos where Murray explains exactly why the engine and transmission are what they are. Makes perfect sense.

The T50 doesn't seem to be designed with minimum CO2 emissions as the first priority.

The average T50 will probably emit less CO2 in its entire life than a current (green) F1 car in one season.

[JordanMugen]

The average T50 will probably emit less CO2 in its entire life than a current F1 car in one season.

Only because it won't be driven anywhere, lol!

The European Union is stressing how incredibly important it is to cut, cut, cut emissions of motor vehicles to the absolute minimum -- in that context, how is it acceptable for Ferrari or GMA to put a V12 in a car just because they want to?

McLaren, on the other hand, have got the memo and have pulled out all the stops to somehow produce an exotic sportscar that produces less CO2 per km than a 1.5L Ford Focus.

Ford Focus 1497cc
CO2 Emission Combined (g/km) 148

https://www.redbook.com.au/cars/details ... TM-540781/

I have no idea how McLaren done it (claiming 129 g CO2/km for the Artura on the combined cycle), but they have done amazing stuff.

...It could be that McLaren are gaming the system by having the Artura complete as much of the test cycle as possible using only its electric motor? When it's driven enthusiastically, it may produce rather higher emissions since it still has a 3L high-output combustion engine? But I guess the European Union doesn't care, as long as the official number is as low as possible.

[gruntguru]

The average T50 will probably emit less CO2 in its entire life than a current F1 car in one season.

Only because it won't be driven anywhere, lol!

Correct.

[Jolle]

The T50 is a remastered greatest hit album from a seventies band. It’s fun, but doesn’t say anything about the current state of the automotive industry. To constantly pick that as “look what people want” is a bit far fetched. 150 bought a T50, good chance 149 as an investment instead of its specs.
Don’t forget for a small production cycle as the T50, it’s probably to expensive to develop a hybrid system.

The big companies who do marketing research, have to comply with rules and have to make money from their cars go for small hybrid engines. With AMG taking the first step into the H unit. The last NA M3 for instance is already quite a while back…

[jjn9128]

GMA is also working on small light electric city cars. And driverless ones at that.

[Thunder]

...It could be that McLaren are gaming the system by having the Artura complete as much of the test cycle as possible using only its electric motor? When it's driven enthusiastically, it may produce rather higher emissions since it still has a 3L high-output combustion engine? But I guess the European Union doesn't care, as long as the official number is as low as possible.

That how everyone does it. Not just McLaren.

[mclaren111]

Norris:

After driving Senna's car on Sunday, Norris said: "It feels completely different, no halo and old-school...
It feels and sounds incredible.

This is what F1 is supposed to be about... Not Auto Manufacturer's Marketing Campaigns...

[Holm86]

New engine regulations reveal???


EDIT*
Never mind, it's just at full size 2022 model on display:

This weekend's British Grand Prix at Silverstone is set to be a truly historic race. Not only will we see the very first F1 Sprint on Saturday, but on Thursday the next era of Formula One will be officially unveiled with the first ever life-size model of a 2022 F1 car rolled out in a special launch event.

F1 begins an exciting new chapter in 2022 when the current rulebook is ripped up and a radical new set of regulations come into force – all designed to produce even more spectacular racing.

And the new era will officially kick off on Thursday at Silverstone with F1 One Begins, a dynamic launch event that will take fans on a journey through the ages before arriving at the most futuristic racing car of all-time.

Fans will not only get to see a life-size 2022 F1 car for the first time, they’ll also be talked through the machine’s revolutionary design by a panel of experts, who will explain the thinking behind the new concept, which will enable drivers to race each other harder than ever before.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 9wKtZ.html

[Zynerji]

The average T50 will probably emit less CO2 in its entire life than a current F1 car in one season.

Only because it won't be driven anywhere, lol!

The European Union is stressing how incredibly important it is to cut, cut, cut emissions of motor vehicles to the absolute minimum -- in that context, how is it acceptable for Ferrari or GMA to put a V12 in a car just because they want to?

McLaren, on the other hand, have got the memo and have pulled out all the stops to somehow produce an exotic sportscar that produces less CO2 per km than a 1.5L Ford Focus.

Ford Focus 1497cc
CO2 Emission Combined (g/km) 148

https://www.redbook.com.au/cars/details ... TM-540781/

I have no idea how McLaren done it (claiming 129 g CO2/km for the Artura on the combined cycle), but they have done amazing stuff.

...It could be that McLaren are gaming the system by having the Artura complete as much of the test cycle as possible using only its electric motor? When it's driven enthusiastically, it may produce rather higher emissions since it still has a 3L high-output combustion engine? But I guess the European Union doesn't care, as long as the official number is as low as possible.

VW found a way to do those tests too...

[Jolle]

The average T50 will probably emit less CO2 in its entire life than a current F1 car in one season.

Only because it won't be driven anywhere, lol!

The European Union is stressing how incredibly important it is to cut, cut, cut emissions of motor vehicles to the absolute minimum -- in that context, how is it acceptable for Ferrari or GMA to put a V12 in a car just because they want to?

McLaren, on the other hand, have got the memo and have pulled out all the stops to somehow produce an exotic sportscar that produces less CO2 per km than a 1.5L Ford Focus.

Ford Focus 1497cc
CO2 Emission Combined (g/km) 148

https://www.redbook.com.au/cars/details ... TM-540781/

I have no idea how McLaren done it (claiming 129 g CO2/km for the Artura on the combined cycle), but they have done amazing stuff.

...It could be that McLaren are gaming the system by having the Artura complete as much of the test cycle as possible using only its electric motor? When it's driven enthusiastically, it may produce rather higher emissions since it still has a 3L high-output combustion engine? But I guess the European Union doesn't care, as long as the official number is as low as possible.

Yes and no.

The test isn't a run at, lets say, 80% of the cars capability but a run with a standerd acceleration and standerd speed. Hybrids of course "cheat" at this cycle because they can use their "free of co2" energy for this run (what is about half an hour I believe). But, is strangely also mimics most of the daily transport we do with our cars, trips from around 10-30 minutes in traffic with a bit of inner city, a bit of motorway, etc. Even for a McLaren. Big NA engines are terrible inefficient at normal speeds... and today supercars can't even be driven on the road at their efficient speed....

So, good chance if you'd go shopping in your McLaren, you will be fairly close to that 129g CO2/km.

[toraabe]

I would welcome a 2 litre v4 like Porsche lmp engine.. Why? Less rpm but more hp and the v4 will like the v6 be a structural part of the car.

[NL_Fer]

Or a 1.1l V4 with a split turbo in the V. Should be easier because it it a shorter block. Than add a 240kw MGU-K