2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[SmallSoldier]

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I honestly wonder whether it's worth the risk. Ferrari took the risk with LeClerc, and look at how that turned out.
Personally, if i were Max, I would rather take the risk of taking a penalty for a race and get a few grid drops, instead of not being able to start a race at all. And frankly, i would take that risk this weekend in hungary (if able to be applied already), since he is still ahead and if he finishes P2, he still is on par on points with Hamilton.

If Mercedes seems too big of a fish to fry in Hungary, i'd take that penalty. If Mercedes is on the back foot, i'd weigh it out carefully to see if you can still manage to win despite getting a grid penalty. Make most use of Perez, Gasly and Tsunoda. Perhaps even tactically play it dirty by making sure Gasly or Tsunoda manage to get in the way of Hamilton during a hot lap in Q3, and play tactics so that they can 'hold up' Hamilton during the race just to make sure you can slow him down enough so Max can beat him.

Completely ignore Bottas meanwhile. It's better to have Max finish ahead of Hamilton but behind Bottas. Then use Perez or Gasly to get a fastest lap in the last lap.

Again, if i had any input in RBR, i'd say 'take a penalty' for Hungary. It's going to be what, 3 grid spot penalty?
So if Max manages to get P1 in Q3, he's gonna start P4. Likely he has the Mercs in front, and then it's going to be either Perez, Norris or LeClerc in P3. If Norris is there, Norris might actually send one inside Bottas or Hamilton in the first corners and with a bit of luck make contact. If it's Perez, then he will move aside without question - or plan to have him overtake Bottas or Hamilton in the first lap, then hold that one up so that Max can pass both.

Net result will be it being hard for Max to beat Hamilton on pace - perhaps tactics will come into play - as he'll build a big enough gap to be out of DRS reach. Either way, Max can finish P2, and perhaps get a fastest lap or deny Hamilton one through Perez or even Gasly, and still come out of Hungary P1 in the WDC standings.

But with zero risks on finishing without points in a future GP.

You mean engine penalties? They wouldn’t have a penalty yet, since if they introduce a third engine (PU #2 is the one in the crash), they would be in within the allocation… The next engine (potential engine #4) would be the one that creates a penalty when introduced.

[El Scorchio]

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I honestly wonder whether it's worth the risk. Ferrari took the risk with LeClerc, and look at how that turned out.
Personally, if i were Max, I would rather take the risk of taking a penalty for a race and get a few grid drops, instead of not being able to start a race at all. And frankly, i would take that risk this weekend in hungary (if able to be applied already), since he is still ahead and if he finishes P2, he still is on par on points with Hamilton.

If Mercedes seems too big of a fish to fry in Hungary, i'd take that penalty. If Mercedes is on the back foot, i'd weigh it out carefully to see if you can still manage to win despite getting a grid penalty. Make most use of Perez, Gasly and Tsunoda. Perhaps even tactically play it dirty by making sure Gasly or Tsunoda manage to get in the way of Hamilton during a hot lap in Q3, and play tactics so that they can 'hold up' Hamilton during the race just to make sure you can slow him down enough so Max can beat him.

Completely ignore Bottas meanwhile. It's better to have Max finish ahead of Hamilton but behind Bottas. Then use Perez or Gasly to get a fastest lap in the last lap.

Again, if i had any input in RBR, i'd say 'take a penalty' for Hungary. It's going to be what, 3 grid spot penalty?
So if Max manages to get P1 in Q3, he's gonna start P4. Likely he has the Mercs in front, and then it's going to be either Perez, Norris or LeClerc in P3. If Norris is there, Norris might actually send one inside Bottas or Hamilton in the first corners and with a bit of luck make contact. If it's Perez, then he will move aside without question - or plan to have him overtake Bottas or Hamilton in the first lap, then hold that one up so that Max can pass both.

Net result will be it being hard for Max to beat Hamilton on pace - perhaps tactics will come into play - as he'll build a big enough gap to be out of DRS reach. Either way, Max can finish P2, and perhaps get a fastest lap or deny Hamilton one through Perez or even Gasly, and still come out of Hungary P1 in the WDC standings.

But with zero risks on finishing without points in a future GP.

You mean engine penalties? They wouldn’t have a penalty yet, since if they introduce a third engine (PU #2 is the one in the crash), they would be in within the allocation… The next engine (potential engine #4) would be the one that creates a penalty when introduced.

I'd probably be tempted to use engine #1 in Hungary, then the new one for Belgium. Monza might be a good place to introduce #4.

[Jolle]

They can run the engine a few Fridays, if it holds out, it’s ok. With Leclerc’s rear end there was no way to properly test it and they took the risk for a possible race win (while he was already out of the championship battle).

[ispano6]

It isn't baseless speculation, Mercedes had a head start on the engine formula even before it was set. I remember reading that they actually had a hand in proposing aspects of the formula based on what they were already developing. They also benefitted from R&D from their Formula E program as well, which of course wasn't illegal and wasn't factored into cost caps. I imagine all manufacturers will use other parts of the business to offset costs from the F1 cost caps using the personnel movement and R&D of other categories.

All manufacturers involved tried to sway the regulations in their favour. VW wanted inline 4 engines, Ferrari wanted V6 and so on. It's how F1 has always worked.

Every single party involved had a say in the regulations and they all would have suggested aspects they were actively researching.

You make it sound like Mercedes single handedly wrote the engine regulations and FIA rubber stamped them.

There are currently no engine cost caps so not sure why bring up this aspect? Their Formula E programme started long after the V6 PU in 2017 iirc so how could that have given them a head start?

I do acknowledge that Honda started later and I agree they were hampered by the token system but it was entirely their decision to join when they did.

Which makes Honda's achievements all the more impressive really, and thanks in major part to Tost and Marko. Without their faith in Honda they would have been gone 3 years ago.

[codetower]

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I honestly wonder whether it's worth the risk. Ferrari took the risk with LeClerc, and look at how that turned out.
Personally, if i were Max, I would rather take the risk of taking a penalty for a race and get a few grid drops, instead of not being able to start a race at all. And frankly, i would take that risk this weekend in hungary (if able to be applied already), since he is still ahead and if he finishes P2, he still is on par on points with Hamilton.

If Mercedes seems too big of a fish to fry in Hungary, i'd take that penalty. If Mercedes is on the back foot, i'd weigh it out carefully to see if you can still manage to win despite getting a grid penalty. Make most use of Perez, Gasly and Tsunoda. Perhaps even tactically play it dirty by making sure Gasly or Tsunoda manage to get in the way of Hamilton during a hot lap in Q3, and play tactics so that they can 'hold up' Hamilton during the race just to make sure you can slow him down enough so Max can beat him.

Completely ignore Bottas meanwhile. It's better to have Max finish ahead of Hamilton but behind Bottas. Then use Perez or Gasly to get a fastest lap in the last lap.

Again, if i had any input in RBR, i'd say 'take a penalty' for Hungary. It's going to be what, 3 grid spot penalty?
So if Max manages to get P1 in Q3, he's gonna start P4. Likely he has the Mercs in front, and then it's going to be either Perez, Norris or LeClerc in P3. If Norris is there, Norris might actually send one inside Bottas or Hamilton in the first corners and with a bit of luck make contact. If it's Perez, then he will move aside without question - or plan to have him overtake Bottas or Hamilton in the first lap, then hold that one up so that Max can pass both.

Net result will be it being hard for Max to beat Hamilton on pace - perhaps tactics will come into play - as he'll build a big enough gap to be out of DRS reach. Either way, Max can finish P2, and perhaps get a fastest lap or deny Hamilton one through Perez or even Gasly, and still come out of Hungary P1 in the WDC standings.

But with zero risks on finishing without points in a future GP.

The Leclerc comparison is a little different. that was a race-day decision. I think if Verstappen tests it on Friday, they'll know whether it can hold up.

With that being said, I agree with you that this could be the circuit to take the hit. But not because Mercedes could win, but because they MAY NOT win. I don't think they'll be as strong in this circuit. I think Versappen can get better pace than Mercedes so it could be easier for him to climb up. Ferrari could be strong this race, as could Alpha Tauri. And I think Bottas could fare better than Hamilton (just this one race). So a BOT-HAM-VER 1,2,3 wont hurt Verstappen as much. I say take the penalty this race... if needed.

[Jolle]

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I honestly wonder whether it's worth the risk. Ferrari took the risk with LeClerc, and look at how that turned out.
Personally, if i were Max, I would rather take the risk of taking a penalty for a race and get a few grid drops, instead of not being able to start a race at all. And frankly, i would take that risk this weekend in hungary (if able to be applied already), since he is still ahead and if he finishes P2, he still is on par on points with Hamilton.

If Mercedes seems too big of a fish to fry in Hungary, i'd take that penalty. If Mercedes is on the back foot, i'd weigh it out carefully to see if you can still manage to win despite getting a grid penalty. Make most use of Perez, Gasly and Tsunoda. Perhaps even tactically play it dirty by making sure Gasly or Tsunoda manage to get in the way of Hamilton during a hot lap in Q3, and play tactics so that they can 'hold up' Hamilton during the race just to make sure you can slow him down enough so Max can beat him.

Completely ignore Bottas meanwhile. It's better to have Max finish ahead of Hamilton but behind Bottas. Then use Perez or Gasly to get a fastest lap in the last lap.

Again, if i had any input in RBR, i'd say 'take a penalty' for Hungary. It's going to be what, 3 grid spot penalty?
So if Max manages to get P1 in Q3, he's gonna start P4. Likely he has the Mercs in front, and then it's going to be either Perez, Norris or LeClerc in P3. If Norris is there, Norris might actually send one inside Bottas or Hamilton in the first corners and with a bit of luck make contact. If it's Perez, then he will move aside without question - or plan to have him overtake Bottas or Hamilton in the first lap, then hold that one up so that Max can pass both.

Net result will be it being hard for Max to beat Hamilton on pace - perhaps tactics will come into play - as he'll build a big enough gap to be out of DRS reach. Either way, Max can finish P2, and perhaps get a fastest lap or deny Hamilton one through Perez or even Gasly, and still come out of Hungary P1 in the WDC standings.

But with zero risks on finishing without points in a future GP.

The Leclerc comparison is a little different. that was a race-day decision. I think if Verstappen tests it on Friday, they'll know whether it can hold up.

With that being said, I agree with you that this could be the circuit to take the hit. But not because Mercedes could win, but because they MAY NOT win. I don't think they'll be as strong in this circuit. I think Versappen can get better pace than Mercedes so it could be easier for him to climb up. Ferrari could be strong this race, as could Alpha Tauri. And I think Bottas could fare better than Hamilton (just this one race). So a BOT-HAM-VER 1,2,3 wont hurt Verstappen as much. I say take the penalty this race... if needed.

He can't take the penalty at this race, because it's not yet his last engine that was in the tires in Copse, but his second.

[f1jcw]

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I honestly wonder whether it's worth the risk. Ferrari took the risk with LeClerc, and look at how that turned out.
Personally, if i were Max, I would rather take the risk of taking a penalty for a race and get a few grid drops, instead of not being able to start a race at all. And frankly, i would take that risk this weekend in hungary (if able to be applied already), since he is still ahead and if he finishes P2, he still is on par on points with Hamilton.

If Mercedes seems too big of a fish to fry in Hungary, i'd take that penalty. If Mercedes is on the back foot, i'd weigh it out carefully to see if you can still manage to win despite getting a grid penalty. Make most use of Perez, Gasly and Tsunoda. Perhaps even tactically play it dirty by making sure Gasly or Tsunoda manage to get in the way of Hamilton during a hot lap in Q3, and play tactics so that they can 'hold up' Hamilton during the race just to make sure you can slow him down enough so Max can beat him.

Completely ignore Bottas meanwhile. It's better to have Max finish ahead of Hamilton but behind Bottas. Then use Perez or Gasly to get a fastest lap in the last lap.

Again, if i had any input in RBR, i'd say 'take a penalty' for Hungary. It's going to be what, 3 grid spot penalty?
So if Max manages to get P1 in Q3, he's gonna start P4. Likely he has the Mercs in front, and then it's going to be either Perez, Norris or LeClerc in P3. If Norris is there, Norris might actually send one inside Bottas or Hamilton in the first corners and with a bit of luck make contact. If it's Perez, then he will move aside without question - or plan to have him overtake Bottas or Hamilton in the first lap, then hold that one up so that Max can pass both.

Net result will be it being hard for Max to beat Hamilton on pace - perhaps tactics will come into play - as he'll build a big enough gap to be out of DRS reach. Either way, Max can finish P2, and perhaps get a fastest lap or deny Hamilton one through Perez or even Gasly, and still come out of Hungary P1 in the WDC standings.

But with zero risks on finishing without points in a future GP.

I thought we was supposed to be F1 fans, not stock car racing.

[NL_Fer]

Also aren’t powerunit parts for 5 grid positions for each part? So new ICE/TC/H/K means start from the back.

Also LeClerc broke his gearbox, with only some on track inspection during parc ferme and he had a pole position to give up.

If they have to take a penalty, why not in Mexico or Interlagos? Do a Perez, last to first to take the win.

[LaplacesDemon]

It isn't baseless speculation, Mercedes had a head start on the engine formula even before it was set. I remember reading that they actually had a hand in proposing aspects of the formula based on what they were already developing. They also benefitted from R&D from their Formula E program as well, which of course wasn't illegal and wasn't factored into cost caps. I imagine all manufacturers will use other parts of the business to offset costs from the F1 cost caps using the personnel movement and R&D of other categories.

All manufacturers involved tried to sway the regulations in their favour. VW wanted inline 4 engines, Ferrari wanted V6 and so on. It's how F1 has always worked.

Every single party involved had a say in the regulations and they all would have suggested aspects they were actively researching.

You make it sound like Mercedes single handedly wrote the engine regulations and FIA rubber stamped them.

There are currently no engine cost caps so not sure why bring up this aspect? Their Formula E programme started long after the V6 PU in 2017 iirc so how could that have given them a head start?

I do acknowledge that Honda started later and I agree they were hampered by the token system but it was entirely their decision to join when they did.

Which makes Honda's achievements all the more impressive really, and thanks in major part to Tost and Marko. Without their faith in Honda they would have been gone 3 years ago.

Absolutely agree.
On top of that they have brought significant value to the sport. They are giving us an exciting season which without Honda would have been another Merc walkover and they are making it possible for RBR to come in as a PU manufacturer which is probably the biggest development for F1 in the last few years.

[SmallSoldier]

I honestly wonder whether it's worth the risk. Ferrari took the risk with LeClerc, and look at how that turned out.
Personally, if i were Max, I would rather take the risk of taking a penalty for a race and get a few grid drops, instead of not being able to start a race at all. And frankly, i would take that risk this weekend in hungary (if able to be applied already), since he is still ahead and if he finishes P2, he still is on par on points with Hamilton.

If Mercedes seems too big of a fish to fry in Hungary, i'd take that penalty. If Mercedes is on the back foot, i'd weigh it out carefully to see if you can still manage to win despite getting a grid penalty. Make most use of Perez, Gasly and Tsunoda. Perhaps even tactically play it dirty by making sure Gasly or Tsunoda manage to get in the way of Hamilton during a hot lap in Q3, and play tactics so that they can 'hold up' Hamilton during the race just to make sure you can slow him down enough so Max can beat him.

Completely ignore Bottas meanwhile. It's better to have Max finish ahead of Hamilton but behind Bottas. Then use Perez or Gasly to get a fastest lap in the last lap.

Again, if i had any input in RBR, i'd say 'take a penalty' for Hungary. It's going to be what, 3 grid spot penalty?
So if Max manages to get P1 in Q3, he's gonna start P4. Likely he has the Mercs in front, and then it's going to be either Perez, Norris or LeClerc in P3. If Norris is there, Norris might actually send one inside Bottas or Hamilton in the first corners and with a bit of luck make contact. If it's Perez, then he will move aside without question - or plan to have him overtake Bottas or Hamilton in the first lap, then hold that one up so that Max can pass both.

Net result will be it being hard for Max to beat Hamilton on pace - perhaps tactics will come into play - as he'll build a big enough gap to be out of DRS reach. Either way, Max can finish P2, and perhaps get a fastest lap or deny Hamilton one through Perez or even Gasly, and still come out of Hungary P1 in the WDC standings.

But with zero risks on finishing without points in a future GP.

You mean engine penalties? They wouldn’t have a penalty yet, since if they introduce a third engine (PU #2 is the one in the crash), they would be in within the allocation… The next engine (potential engine #4) would be the one that creates a penalty when introduced.

I'd probably be tempted to use engine #1 in Hungary, then the new one for Belgium. Monza might be a good place to introduce #4.

That would be the sensible approach… The only challenge is that engine #1 not only already completed 6 races, but it has also completed several practice sessions (FP1 and FP2) after PU2 was introduced (also consider that PU1 completed all FP1 and FP2 sessions for the first 6 races of the year)… Therefore PU1 has a significant amount of mileage already induced.

It shouldn’t be much of a problem from a power perspective (even though PU’s lose power with mileage) since Hungary isn’t that power hungry, but because of the amount of mileage they might need to be conservative with it… That in combination with a very close battle for both Championships might be too much of a risk for the team.

Even though introducing PU3 in Spa would be the most ideal scenario (if PU2 isn’t deem race ready), I wouldn’t take the risks mentioned above and would probably introduce it already in Hungary

[etusch]

It is still too early and there is possiblity that Mercedes or ham to face a dnf or engine issue ( this valid for everyone of course )

[RonMexico]

I don’t see why that should be off the table. You can only succesfully lodge a protest if you have provided information the stewards did not yet use when making the original judgement. Since this has been accepted redbull has succeeded in doing so.

They haven't lodged a protest though, it's the right to review. The review might determine there is no new evidence, at which point the investigation won't be reopened. Ferrari did exactly the same after the Canadian GP in 2019.

Also to clarify, they have to provide new evidence i.e. something that was not available to the stewards at the time of the investigation. Simply restating their opinion using evidence such as telemetry which was already available to the stewards is unlikely to succeed.

I wonder will the new evidence be something like this?

[Ryar]

If they have to, Belgium would be the right place for taking 4th PU, instead of Italy. It would be nightmare to overtake McLarens and Ferraris in Monza on a single long stretch. In Spa though, it's far more easier due to two long back to back straights and a massive slipstream effect on Kemmel straight.

[ispano6]

If they have to, Belgium would be the right place for taking 4th PU, instead of Italy. It would be nightmare to overtake McLarens and Ferraris in Monza on a single long stretch. In Spa though, it's far more easier due to two long back to back straights and a massive slipstream effect on Kemmel straight.

Why would take their 4th PU in Belgium? They haven't even taken the 3rd PU. The 4th PU would come much later into the season, somewhere around Russian GP. Even if they took a 3rd PU in Hungary, why would they take a 4th in Belgium in the very next race? That makes no sense at all.

[Ryar]

If they have to, Belgium would be the right place for taking 4th PU, instead of Italy. It would be nightmare to overtake McLarens and Ferraris in Monza on a single long stretch. In Spa though, it's far more easier due to two long back to back straights and a massive slipstream effect on Kemmel straight.

Why would take their 4th PU in Belgium? They haven't even taken the 3rd PU. The 4th PU would come much later into the season, somewhere around Russian GP. Even if they took a 3rd PU in Hungary, why would they take a 4th in Belgium in the very next race? That makes no sense at all.

The PUs are going to be same, whether they take back to back now or one at a later stage (assuming there is a penalty). There are no developments. They bring 3rd and 4th in use, even if it is for Friday practice and keep it back and use it across the season. IMO the best place to take penalty is Spa and there is no other track that helps a better result than that.