2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[etusch]

The PUs are going to be same, whether they take back to back now or one at a later stage (assuming there is a penalty). There are no developments. They bring 3rd and 4th in use, even if it is for Friday practice and keep it back and use it across the season. IMO the best place to take penalty is Spa and there is no other track that helps a better result than that.

maybe it is better idea to choose better time instead of better place by waiting until they must use 4th pu.

[Curbstone]

If Honda says the engine is good to go, I trust it really is good to go.
The situation compared to Monaco with Ferrari is completely different. Ferrari has zero chance of becoming WCC this year and all they can hope for is some special race in which they can win. Monaco was such an event, and possibly their only chance this year. So taking a little risk and go for it instead of changing the engine/gearbox and give up on pole an a race win seemed to be a logical choice for them. For RBR/Honda the championship is on the line, so the long term effect of a wrong decision is much bigger.
Honda took a long period for investigating the engine, back in their factory. There you can do a lot more and accurate investigations on the engine that overnight in the pit lane.

[Roostfactor]

If Honda says the engine is good to go, I trust it really is good to go.
The situation compared to Monaco with Ferrari is completely different. Ferrari has zero chance of becoming WCC this year and all they can hope for is some special race in which they can win. Monaco was such an event, and possibly their only chance this year. So taking a little risk and go for it instead of changing the engine/gearbox and give up on pole an a race win seemed to be a logical choice for them. For RBR/Honda the championship is on the line, so the long term effect of a wrong decision is much bigger.
Honda took a long period for investigating the engine, back in their factory. There you can do a lot more and accurate investigations on the engine that overnight in the pit lane.

And I'm sure they dynoed it to verify operation. The track will be the final ops check during practice to validate all the other tests. (speculating)

[i70q7m7ghw]

I don’t see why that should be off the table. You can only succesfully lodge a protest if you have provided information the stewards did not yet use when making the original judgement. Since this has been accepted redbull has succeeded in doing so.

They haven't lodged a protest though, it's the right to review. The review might determine there is no new evidence, at which point the investigation won't be reopened. Ferrari did exactly the same after the Canadian GP in 2019.

Also to clarify, they have to provide new evidence i.e. something that was not available to the stewards at the time of the investigation. Simply restating their opinion using evidence such as telemetry which was already available to the stewards is unlikely to succeed.

I wonder will the new evidence be something like this?

Race control have their own cameras that aren't part of the FOM feed, those cameras are fixed and watch every corner on the circuit. Effectively they would already have a much better fixed position angle of this, so this kind of thing won't count as new evidence.

They also have the telemetry for every car, so again they know anything Red Bull have with regards to the speed of the cars. I am struggling to understand what new evidence Red Bull are likely to present. I suspect it's very much a case of them trying anything possible under the rules because this represents a potentially championship deciding event.

Here's a good overview that talks about what the stewards have:
https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... wards-room

It shows how they can use the the circuits own CCTV system in addition to the FOM footage that us regular punters see.

There is also a somewhat recent precedent for this: https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... w-evidence

The FIA state that all of the evidence provided by Ferrari was already available to the stewards at the time of the decision and did not constitute significant or relevant new evidence. They also noted that the analysis by Karun Chandhok was 'personal opinion by a third party' and dismissed it.

So it seems very unlikely Red Bull have anything they could present that would likely result in a successful appeal. This is just because the option is available to them, and it's potentially the deciding factor in winning the championships so they must at least try.

[littlebigcat]

The only new evidence they can present to the stewards is information that came about after they had made the decision.

[Lock2nl]

Red Bull decided to play the game like Toto has been doing when the pressure was finally on Mercedes. The only goal is to destabilize Mercedes, and Lewis in particular. If it works and Red Bull takes the win with Max in Hungary, their goal has been achieved for now. I expect them to push the front wing issue to get all cameras pointed on Mercedes in Spa.

[Jolle]

Red Bull decided to play the game like Toto has been doing when the pressure was finally on Mercedes. The only goal is to destabilize Mercedes, and Lewis in particular. If it works and Red Bull takes the win with Max in Hungary, their goal has been achieved for now. I expect them to push the front wing issue to get all cameras pointed on Mercedes in Spa.

And a huge chance it will backfire. Hamilton is used to this after all his years in the spotlight. Verstappen is known to be a bit more volatile (pushing Ocon, “I’m going to head but someone” after questions about his driving) and now has a team that puts oil on every fire. We’ve seen what this does with a driver (Vettel antics over the years well was a product of this environment).

[Ryar]

Red Bull decided to play the game like Toto has been doing when the pressure was finally on Mercedes. The only goal is to destabilize Mercedes, and Lewis in particular. If it works and Red Bull takes the win with Max in Hungary, their goal has been achieved for now. I expect them to push the front wing issue to get all cameras pointed on Mercedes in Spa.

And a huge chance it will backfire. Hamilton is used to this after all his years in the spotlight. Verstappen is known to be a bit more volatile (pushing Ocon, “I’m going to head but someone” after questions about his driving) and now has a team that puts oil on every fire. We’ve seen what this does with a driver (Vettel antics over the years well was a product of this environment).

Hamilton is also known to be troubled with good amount of pressure, as was the case in 2016. It was lack of such immense pressure that Hamilton has seemed calm. Just look at this year itself and see the mistakes. Who knows, if this pressure works out, Hamilton gets a revised penalty and he would potentially be rattled by handing over moral highground to Max and Red Bull and start making even more mistakes. Even if no revised penalty, it would push Hamilton to become more cautious and avoid making mistakes, that probably would cost more in the next event, unless he plans and covers all his bases well in the next incident, which is unlikely in the heat of the moment. For sure, it would make him more careful to not get caught in a storm again.

[Jolle]

Red Bull decided to play the game like Toto has been doing when the pressure was finally on Mercedes. The only goal is to destabilize Mercedes, and Lewis in particular. If it works and Red Bull takes the win with Max in Hungary, their goal has been achieved for now. I expect them to push the front wing issue to get all cameras pointed on Mercedes in Spa.

And a huge chance it will backfire. Hamilton is used to this after all his years in the spotlight. Verstappen is known to be a bit more volatile (pushing Ocon, “I’m going to head but someone” after questions about his driving) and now has a team that puts oil on every fire. We’ve seen what this does with a driver (Vettel antics over the years well was a product of this environment).

Hamilton is also known to be troubled with good amount of pressure, as was the case in 2016. It was lack of such immense pressure that Hamilton has seemed calm. Just look at this year itself and see the mistakes. Who knows, if this pressure works out, Hamilton gets a revised penalty and he would potentially be rattled by handing over moral highground to Max and Red Bull and start making even more mistakes. Even if no revised penalty, it would push Hamilton to become more cautious and avoid making mistakes, that probably would cost more in the next event, unless he plans and covers all his bases well in the next incident, which is unlikely in the heat of the moment. For sure, it would make him more careful to not get caught in a storm again.

In 2016, he had Rosberg so worked up that he had him making ill planned moves, in Austria for instance. I know you want to believe that Verstappen is one cool dude, but history tells a different story as does the Hamilton-Rosberg years (or the few years battle with Vettel). At no point did Hamilton lost his cool (on track), while both Vettel and Rosberg did, on track, multiple times.

[djones]

The truth of 2016 is was it not for the engine failure Hamilton would have won the WDC. So he was not exactly knocked too far off his game, regardless of any shenanigans that went on.

[Sieper]

And Verstappen won’t get thrown of his game with the shenanigans that have now resorted to again by Lewis. The only danger is Lewis doing it again. You can’t really guard yourself from someone tapping you out of a corner. Therefor I hope the punishment will get revised. This option needs to be off the table.

[djones]

And Verstappen won’t get thrown of his game with the shenanigans that have now resorted to again by Lewis. The only danger is Lewis doing it again. You can’t really guard yourself from someone tapping you out of a corner. Therefor I hope the punishment will get revised. This option needs to be off the table.

Although its hard to proactively guard against it, the idea is you prevent incidents at the time they are happening...

You could not defend as hard.
You could leave more room.
You could realise when a car is 90% alongside the overtake is in their control so you need to be sensible.
etc.
etc.

[RonMexico]

They haven't lodged a protest though, it's the right to review. The review might determine there is no new evidence, at which point the investigation won't be reopened. Ferrari did exactly the same after the Canadian GP in 2019.

Also to clarify, they have to provide new evidence i.e. something that was not available to the stewards at the time of the investigation. Simply restating their opinion using evidence such as telemetry which was already available to the stewards is unlikely to succeed.

I wonder will the new evidence be something like this?

Race control have their own cameras that aren't part of the FOM feed, those cameras are fixed and watch every corner on the circuit. Effectively they would already have a much better fixed position angle of this, so this kind of thing won't count as new evidence.

They also have the telemetry for every car, so again they know anything Red Bull have with regards to the speed of the cars. I am struggling to understand what new evidence Red Bull are likely to present. I suspect it's very much a case of them trying anything possible under the rules because this represents a potentially championship deciding event.

Here's a good overview that talks about what the stewards have:
https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... wards-room

It shows how they can use the the circuits own CCTV system in addition to the FOM footage that us regular punters see.

There is also a somewhat recent precedent for this: https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... w-evidence

The FIA state that all of the evidence provided by Ferrari was already available to the stewards at the time of the decision and did not constitute significant or relevant new evidence. They also noted that the analysis by Karun Chandhok was 'personal opinion by a third party' and dismissed it.

So it seems very unlikely Red Bull have anything they could present that would likely result in a successful appeal. This is just because the option is available to them, and it's potentially the deciding factor in winning the championships so they must at least try.

Why were red bull able to produce a new camera angle showing Hamilton ignoring yellows in one of the Austria races last year then? Did he not get a penalty as a result?

[Sieper]

You can be totally sensible and still get hit.

[adrianjordan]

I think RBR know they won't get a change to Lewis's penalty. I think they are hoping for clearer guidance on when a corner should be conceded etc and, hopefully, more consistent stewarding.

Or they're just using every tool available to them in a tight championship year.

Personally I just wish Horner and Marko came across better in the press. They seem easy to dislike, similar to some of the other teams - AM for example and their whining about the aero rules earlier this season. Meanwhile Toto, Seidl and their ilk always remains calm. Maybe that's just me.