2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
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codetower
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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How is everyone determining which car is faster (honest question)? Is Ver's RB faster than Perez' RB? Is Ham's faster than Bot's? Which car is faster, Bottas' or Perez'?

I'm nowhere near expert, but from my couch's view is seems Mercedes have the faster car. In clean air with clean driving, they seem to be able to catch up and pull away a little quicker than I've seen the RB do it. For me it comes down to both drivers being great... my opinion, VER is driving a little better than HAM this year. hence the slight advantage during Quali.

LaplacesDemon
LaplacesDemon
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Verstappen stated they are missing 1-2 tenths

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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LaplacesDemon wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 16:31
Verstappen stated they are missing 1-2 tenths
That will vary from track to track. I'm sure he has no clue who is faster at SPA.

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Marti_EF3
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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By the way, how Honda thinks to repair a cracked engine block? They said they will try to repair it. Also with Pérez PU.

If RB brings another upgrade to Spa, then I think it may be game on. But I still think they need to do a more agressive strategy and run an extra PU with more power every race...

Jolle
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Marti_EF3 wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 18:57
By the way, how Honda thinks to repair a cracked engine block? They said they will try to repair it. Also with Pérez PU.

If RB brings another upgrade to Spa, then I think it may be game on. But I still think they need to do a more agressive strategy and run an extra PU with more power every race...
they could weld it, they could glue it... depends if and where there are cracks and how bad they are. Wouldn't be as light as new, but it would be rigid again.

Kingshark
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Honda engine has been pulled back by the FIA.

Mercedes engine finding more power than ever before.

Honda have to take engine penalties in the second half of the season.

This season is literally being decided entirely by engines.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Jolle wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 18:59
Marti_EF3 wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 18:57
By the way, how Honda thinks to repair a cracked engine block? They said they will try to repair it. Also with Pérez PU.

If RB brings another upgrade to Spa, then I think it may be game on. But I still think they need to do a more agressive strategy and run an extra PU with more power every race...
they could weld it, they could glue it... depends if and where there are cracks and how bad they are. Wouldn't be as light as new, but it would be rigid again.
They can't really weld the aluminum block. No matter what methodology they use to weld it, they would need to apply so much localized heat that it would destroy the temper.
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SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 13:35
Incognito wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 13:05
Juzh wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 12:32

Dreamland. Hamilton twice in a row beat verstappen by considerable margins in qualifying (should have been 3-4 tenths in silverstone), and that quite simply means mercedes is faster car now. We have no race data apart from sprint race which is way too short and unrepresentative. Hamilton was unable to overtake leclerc even in first stint during normal race, so running in dirty air was entirely responsible for him sitting behind Verstappen in sprint.
Qualifying pace and race pace are now simply the same, regardless of tyre or environmental differences between the days?

A couple of qualifying laps are entirely representative of race pace, but a 17-lap race is way too short and unrepresentative to draw conclusions about race pace from?

I'm obviously missing something (or quite a lot) so could you clarify, please?
In my opinion qualifying gaps are way more representative than one flat out stint where you're confined to running in dirty air the whole time. That's on top of just general car and driver behaviour behind the wheel and in interviews. Verstappen himself said they didn't have the pace in quali, and I'm yet to see a race this year where red bull had better race pace relative to their qualifying pace. It was either equal or worse.

I dont see anyone saying ferrari is faster than mercedes just because hamilton couldn't overtake leclerc for the first 24 laps either.
With the cars been so close to each other (a few tenths one or the other) it is very hard to make any hard analysis based on race outcome… These cars still need quiet a delta in pace to be able to overtake each other and the only way to create it is with tire management and building that tire delta for either a undercut / overcut on the pitstop window or at the end of the race.

If the cars are separated by only a couple of tenths, with how hard it is to follow, on track position after the first lap will usually dominate that first stint… That’s the challenge with the Sprint qualifying in which, unless someone is clearly out of position, after the first lap it would be very hard to make overtakes unless they have a different strategy in terms of tires (like Alonso in Silverstone)… The fact that Max was ahead after the first lap and Lewis couldn’t overtake him during the sprint has more to do with how close the cars and how hard it is to build a tire delta during that short of an stint.

SmallSoldier
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 20:24
Jolle wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 18:59
Marti_EF3 wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 18:57
By the way, how Honda thinks to repair a cracked engine block? They said they will try to repair it. Also with Pérez PU.

If RB brings another upgrade to Spa, then I think it may be game on. But I still think they need to do a more agressive strategy and run an extra PU with more power every race...
they could weld it, they could glue it... depends if and where there are cracks and how bad they are. Wouldn't be as light as new, but it would be rigid again.
They can't really weld the aluminum block. No matter what methodology they use to weld it, they would need to apply so much localized heat that it would destroy the temper.
According to Craig:


Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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My guess is the nr. 2 engine will get fixed with FIA dispensation and will become reserve engine. Nr. 1 engine will stay Friday engine as long as possible, could even be until Austin since it hasn't had the highest duty cycles after Bahrain. By postponing the (official) decision to either re use engine nr. 2 or take a penalty and take engine nr. 4 you're not making Mercedes any wiser..

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etusch
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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FIA's new technical directive may have slowed Honda

While the technical directive sent by the FIA ​​regarding Honda's energy use in the last 4 months may have slowed down the Japanese manufacturer; According to some, Mercedes has gained "illegal" performance in its engine.

As we enter the turbo-hybrid era, Mercedes has mostly been the leader in powertrains since 2014 in both performance and durability.

However, Honda managed to raise the 2022 engine project to the 2021 season and managed to catch up with Mercedes with its new power unit developed in many areas.

In the French Grand Prix, Honda switched to its second engine and started to get ahead of Mercedes with this new engine.

In France, it was claimed that thanks to the durability updates that Honda brought with its second engine, the vibration problem in the engine was resolved and the engine could be used at full power for a longer period of time.

According to the report of AMuS, Honda was ahead of Mercedes by 15 horsepower with its new turbo feeder produced by jet engineers and with the elimination of durability concerns.

In Austria, Red Bull's advantage on the straights has grown even more, and this is not just due to Red Bull's less drag-inducing rear wing.

Mercedes thought that with the second power unit that Honda passed in France, it was able to use the engine at its full potential for a longer period of time, and it was 15 hp ahead.

However, since performance updates were not available to the engines this season, Honda said this was not possible and already stated that other manufacturers were able to control these updates.

Honda F1 technical director Toyoharu Tanabe responded to these claims: "Under current power unit regulations, we have to submit our changes to the FIA. You can only make changes for durability, logistics and cost reasons."

"Before we make the changes, we first need to present the change in detail to the FIA. Then the FIA ​​has to accept the change."

"The FIA ​​distributes the detailed documents we send them to all engine suppliers. So other engine suppliers are aware of the changes we've made and they need to approve the change before they happen."

"Why are we doing such a detailed investigation? Because a long time ago some teams were improving their performance by introducing stamina updates."

"Therefore, we are very careful not to increase our performance. As the season continues, it is not possible for us to improve our performance. This is my answer to these allegations."

Discussions in the engine area have seemed to have stalled for the past few weeks, but both teams consider each other to be gaining performance the "illegal" way. According to the Mercedes camp, Honda has made illegal practices related to energy use and the FIA ​​has therefore sent a technical directive to Honda.

From the Red Bull camp, it was claimed that Mercedes gained performance illegally by cooling the plenum.

Let's take a look at these claims in the paddock together.

Honda slowed down by new technical directive?
According to AMuS, the answer to this question may be "yes". According to AMuS reporters, it can be understood from the Mercedes camp that Honda has been slowed by a new technical directive, and Mercedes thinks that Honda has slowed down with the new directive.

Tanabe attributed the development of its engines from France to the Japanese manufacturer's better understanding of the engine and better management of energy use at the trackside.

Although Tanabe says they have improved in energy use and management, the FIA ​​allegedly; He's not very happy with the way Honda has used and managed the ERS in his vehicles for the past 4 months.

Therefore, it is thought that a technical directive was sent to Honda on this issue and corrections were made to the engine. However, no penalty was given to the Japanese team. Just like with the fuel flow limit thing in Ferrari's 2019 engine, the corrections made to the engines are tried to be kept secret.

Is Mercedes starting to gain performance in an "illegal" way by cooling the air intake chamber?

Again, according to AMuS, the Red Bull camp thinks that Mercedes is illegally gaining performance by cooling the air intake chamber.

The British driver was able to accelerate so well on the short straight up to Copse Bend, which is claimed to be why the 7-time world champion was able to attack Max Verstappen on that short straight in the first lap.

Cooling the air intake chamber means more power. During qualifying or at the start of the race, you can cool the air intake chamber the old-fashioned way, like dry ice. Of course, the effect of this lasts very little and probably after the first lap the air intake chamber will return to its former temperature.

However, systematic cooling of the air intake chamber is prohibited under current rules, and other teams think Mercedes has found a gray area in this area or is not following the rules. According to rumors, Ferrari is among the teams considering this.

One of the Red Bull camps told AMuS that it is illegal to cool the air intake chamber, and that "in particular, putting more fuel in the air intake chamber and delivering cold air in a shorter time" is prohibited.

Hamilton, on the other hand, denied the claims that they gained performance by using cooling methods.

The fight for the world championship is getting hotter and this time it seems that the engines will be on the agenda of the teams. These two claims may come to the fore in the coming weeks, especially as the upcoming race is on the Spa track, where engine power plays an important role.
google.transleted from = https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/fiani ... r/6641506/

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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SmallSoldier wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 21:03
dans79 wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 20:24
Jolle wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 18:59


they could weld it, they could glue it... depends if and where there are cracks and how bad they are. Wouldn't be as light as new, but it would be rigid again.
They can't really weld the aluminum block. No matter what methodology they use to weld it, they would need to apply so much localized heat that it would destroy the temper.
According to Craig:

I'm sorry, but he's wrong in this case. If you weld aluminum, especially a giant thermal Mass like a block, you're going to have to put so much heat into it to have a proper weld that it will destroy the temper of the aluminum.

You won't destroy the temper of the entire block, but locally close to the weld area you will. Then it will progressively change as you move away from the weld area.
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N21
N21
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Joined: 25 Feb 2021, 13:17

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Curious what will happen on that Mercedes air intake matter. Already in pre-season it was clear that Mercedes did something with the air plenum (the “sexy” bulge). Why has no one looked into the legality of the plenum before? Maybe because Mercedes have their aero sorted, the plenum performance gains now also become visible?

Jolle
Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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etusch wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 22:08
FIA's new technical directive may have slowed Honda

While the technical directive sent by the FIA ​​regarding Honda's energy use in the last 4 months may have slowed down the Japanese manufacturer; According to some, Mercedes has gained "illegal" performance in its engine.

As we enter the turbo-hybrid era, Mercedes has mostly been the leader in powertrains since 2014 in both performance and durability.

However, Honda managed to raise the 2022 engine project to the 2021 season and managed to catch up with Mercedes with its new power unit developed in many areas.

In the French Grand Prix, Honda switched to its second engine and started to get ahead of Mercedes with this new engine.

In France, it was claimed that thanks to the durability updates that Honda brought with its second engine, the vibration problem in the engine was resolved and the engine could be used at full power for a longer period of time.

According to the report of AMuS, Honda was ahead of Mercedes by 15 horsepower with its new turbo feeder produced by jet engineers and with the elimination of durability concerns.

In Austria, Red Bull's advantage on the straights has grown even more, and this is not just due to Red Bull's less drag-inducing rear wing.

Mercedes thought that with the second power unit that Honda passed in France, it was able to use the engine at its full potential for a longer period of time, and it was 15 hp ahead.

However, since performance updates were not available to the engines this season, Honda said this was not possible and already stated that other manufacturers were able to control these updates.

Honda F1 technical director Toyoharu Tanabe responded to these claims: "Under current power unit regulations, we have to submit our changes to the FIA. You can only make changes for durability, logistics and cost reasons."

"Before we make the changes, we first need to present the change in detail to the FIA. Then the FIA ​​has to accept the change."

"The FIA ​​distributes the detailed documents we send them to all engine suppliers. So other engine suppliers are aware of the changes we've made and they need to approve the change before they happen."

"Why are we doing such a detailed investigation? Because a long time ago some teams were improving their performance by introducing stamina updates."

"Therefore, we are very careful not to increase our performance. As the season continues, it is not possible for us to improve our performance. This is my answer to these allegations."

Discussions in the engine area have seemed to have stalled for the past few weeks, but both teams consider each other to be gaining performance the "illegal" way. According to the Mercedes camp, Honda has made illegal practices related to energy use and the FIA ​​has therefore sent a technical directive to Honda.

From the Red Bull camp, it was claimed that Mercedes gained performance illegally by cooling the plenum.

Let's take a look at these claims in the paddock together.

Honda slowed down by new technical directive?
According to AMuS, the answer to this question may be "yes". According to AMuS reporters, it can be understood from the Mercedes camp that Honda has been slowed by a new technical directive, and Mercedes thinks that Honda has slowed down with the new directive.

Tanabe attributed the development of its engines from France to the Japanese manufacturer's better understanding of the engine and better management of energy use at the trackside.

Although Tanabe says they have improved in energy use and management, the FIA ​​allegedly; He's not very happy with the way Honda has used and managed the ERS in his vehicles for the past 4 months.

Therefore, it is thought that a technical directive was sent to Honda on this issue and corrections were made to the engine. However, no penalty was given to the Japanese team. Just like with the fuel flow limit thing in Ferrari's 2019 engine, the corrections made to the engines are tried to be kept secret.

Is Mercedes starting to gain performance in an "illegal" way by cooling the air intake chamber?

Again, according to AMuS, the Red Bull camp thinks that Mercedes is illegally gaining performance by cooling the air intake chamber.

The British driver was able to accelerate so well on the short straight up to Copse Bend, which is claimed to be why the 7-time world champion was able to attack Max Verstappen on that short straight in the first lap.

Cooling the air intake chamber means more power. During qualifying or at the start of the race, you can cool the air intake chamber the old-fashioned way, like dry ice. Of course, the effect of this lasts very little and probably after the first lap the air intake chamber will return to its former temperature.

However, systematic cooling of the air intake chamber is prohibited under current rules, and other teams think Mercedes has found a gray area in this area or is not following the rules. According to rumors, Ferrari is among the teams considering this.

One of the Red Bull camps told AMuS that it is illegal to cool the air intake chamber, and that "in particular, putting more fuel in the air intake chamber and delivering cold air in a shorter time" is prohibited.

Hamilton, on the other hand, denied the claims that they gained performance by using cooling methods.

The fight for the world championship is getting hotter and this time it seems that the engines will be on the agenda of the teams. These two claims may come to the fore in the coming weeks, especially as the upcoming race is on the Spa track, where engine power plays an important role.
google.transleted from = https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/fiani ... r/6641506/
I found this claim a bit strange:
One of the Red Bull camps told AMuS that it is illegal to cool the air intake chamber, and that "in particular, putting more fuel in the air intake chamber and delivering cold air in a shorter time" is prohibited.

This would be true in the old style shower injectors, but not with the direct injection that is used since 2014. This disqualifies the source a bit and such a simple mistake doesn't speak well for the journalist.

The tech people from the FIA already took Bottas his car apart after the first GP under the new regulations in a bid to prevent another "Ferrari case" and found nothing illegal or has any team asked for a directive. It's more likely that both Mercedes and Renault found a gain by redesigning the intake, without active cooling.

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etusch
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Joined: 22 Feb 2009, 23:09
Location: Turkey

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Jolle wrote:
03 Aug 2021, 23:26

I found this claim a bit strange:
One of the Red Bull camps told AMuS that it is illegal to cool the air intake chamber, and that "in particular, putting more fuel in the air intake chamber and delivering cold air in a shorter time" is prohibited.

This would be true in the old style shower injectors, but not with the direct injection that is used since 2014. This disqualifies the source a bit and such a simple mistake doesn't speak well for the journalist.

The tech people from the FIA already took Bottas his car apart after the first GP under the new regulations in a bid to prevent another "Ferrari case" and found nothing illegal or has any team asked for a directive. It's more likely that both Mercedes and Renault found a gain by redesigning the intake, without active cooling.
I think your claim(direct injection formula) is a bit strange if we are talking about illegality. And if fia didn't find any illegality or couldn't find is another subject.
Last edited by etusch on 04 Aug 2021, 09:22, edited 1 time in total.