2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[basti313]

No. 10 place in the race. I can picture that they do the swap if they are P3 or worse after the Sprint. Because then the point loss is minimal.

[Jolle]

For the engine swap, we don’t know yet with Covid how long the season will be. It’s just their luck to take a costly swap at Sunday only to have three races left… or have a unlucky qualifying the race after. My guess is they are going to take it as late as possible or at the first event that somehow is botched up, like Perez in Zandvoort

[Wouter]

Bulls’ Best Bits: Dutch GP

What a weekend! We round up our highlights from the first Dutch GP since 1985.

https://www.redbull.com/int-en/redbullr ... tsDutch21/?

[basti313]

For the engine swap, we don’t know yet with Covid how long the season will be. It’s just their luck to take a costly swap at Sunday only to have three races left… or have a unlucky qualifying the race after. My guess is they are going to take it as late as possible or at the first event that somehow is botched up, like Perez in Zandvoort

Yes, this idea is not completely wrong. But I think it is impossible to go through the season without an additional engine. It would need a cancellation of at least two races to "nurse" the engine through 8 races with 3-4 power hungry tracks to go.

My idea of this weekend is the following: If they see in the sprint that Merc is unreachable (what I somehow expect) and that the gap to at least most of McLaren, Ferrari, etc. is big enough, then there is not much danger of taking the penalty. They would basically only loose 3-5 points. Which can be easily recovered with an engine advantage at COTA.
Maybe it is even worse and after last years performances McLaren is ahead of RB...then the point loss is even less.

You also need to consider that Merc will be marginal at the end as they need to run now all FP1 and 2 on a race engine. So I do not see an issue with loosing "deliberately" some points in Monza if the Merc engine makes a big difference here.

[etusch]

It is expected to see a better merc at monza because of engine performance. But we have to see before having a conclusion. Maybe at that low df redbull car will be super balanced and Honda engine also can be better. That is merc outing of turns power may cause worse performance or bad tyre performance ( life or getting heat at tyres) under low df settings.

[Wouter]

Max: 'Winning Zandvoort a brilliant performance from the whole Red Bull team'

Published on 07 September 2021 by Niels Hendrix

Speaking to the winner of the Dutch Grand Prix, Max Verstappen is being asked: You’ve retaken the championship lead after driving a faultless weekend at Circuit Zandvoort in front of your passionate home fans. How good does it feel? Max replies: “I couldn’t have asked for more in Zandvoort but now it’s all eyes on Monza. The Italian Grand Prix is only around the corner and it’s very tight in the championship so the celebrations can wait and some rest between the race weekends will be important.”

A sea of orange fans were singing your name all weekend. Did you feel the pressure to perform, especially in the race on Sunday with both Mercedes behind you? The Dutch Red Bull Racing driver says: “People always think there is more pressure for drivers at their home Grand Prix but for me it’s more enjoyable. You don’t sit in your car thinking you have to deliver because you have to deliver all the time in F1 anyway so it’s no different. From my side it doesn’t really change anything in terms of pressure if it’s your home race or not. Of course everyone does expect a lot from you at a home race so it’s nice to be able to deliver and especially to win in front of the Royal Family, but it was a brilliant performance from the whole Red Bull team. Strategically we were very sharp but I’m aware that not every weekend will be like Zandvoort so we have to keep working as a team and keep pushing as there are still a lot of races to go.”

Historically the Monza circuit hasn’t always favoured Red Bull. What are your thoughts going into the weekend? Max: “I expect Monza to suit Mercedes as it hasn’t been our best track for the last few years but this year we are more competitive so you never know. If we continue what we have been doing, working well together as a team, and nail every little detail then we can be competitive but Mercedes might have a top speed advantage on us. The track looks easy on paper but it’s actually quite difficult to nail a lap there because with a low downforce set up and the long braking zone the car is moving around quite a lot. It’s a bumpy track with quite old tarmac and the fans there are really passionate about racing and Formula 1. Naturally, there is always a lot of Ferrari support there but the fans just love F1 and it’s great to see that energy with the Italians.

Red Bull are second in the constructors standings. Who do you see having the advantage at this stage of the championship? Max: “I don’t think either us or Mercedes have a big advantage over the other. At Zandvoort you could see in qualifying and the race that both of our cars are super close and Lewis was applying pressure for the entire race which meant we couldn’t afford to make any mistakes on the track, in the pit lane or on the pit wall, and we didn’t. I think it’s the finer details where you can make a difference. When you enter a race weekend you have to work hard as a team on the set-up and fine tuning the little details, that’s where the gains can be made.”

[darkpino]

Regarding 2nd drivers of RBR something struck me when listening to Beyond the Grid with Jock Clear. He said that most drivers who are good in the rain don’t like an oversteering car. He literally says: “people say Schumacher liked and oversteering car; that’s not true”.

As Verstappen is pretty well in the rain I asked myself: what if he also likes an understeering car and that’s why all his team mates can’t really get the car to work? As it is build all around Max, team mates try to get more out of the car by setting it up more oversteering (which much top drivers prefer if I’m not mistaken) and that causes them to have snap oversteer? And therefore they can’t really find a balance?

[Unf]

Maybe I am too much into sim racing, but is it really that hard to make one car more understeer and another one more oversteer according to driver's demands? They have camber, they have toe, they have rear wing, they have differentail... they have a lot of opportunities to set up car for particular guy I think...

[bonjon1979]

Max: 'Winning Zandvoort a brilliant performance from the whole Red Bull team'

Published on 07 September 2021 by Niels Hendrix

Speaking to the winner of the Dutch Grand Prix, Max Verstappen is being asked: You’ve retaken the championship lead after driving a faultless weekend at Circuit Zandvoort in front of your passionate home fans. How good does it feel? Max replies: “I couldn’t have asked for more in Zandvoort but now it’s all eyes on Monza. The Italian Grand Prix is only around the corner and it’s very tight in the championship so the celebrations can wait and some rest between the race weekends will be important.”

A sea of orange fans were singing your name all weekend. Did you feel the pressure to perform, especially in the race on Sunday with both Mercedes behind you? The Dutch Red Bull Racing driver says: “People always think there is more pressure for drivers at their home Grand Prix but for me it’s more enjoyable. You don’t sit in your car thinking you have to deliver because you have to deliver all the time in F1 anyway so it’s no different. From my side it doesn’t really change anything in terms of pressure if it’s your home race or not. Of course everyone does expect a lot from you at a home race so it’s nice to be able to deliver and especially to win in front of the Royal Family, but it was a brilliant performance from the whole Red Bull team. Strategically we were very sharp but I’m aware that not every weekend will be like Zandvoort so we have to keep working as a team and keep pushing as there are still a lot of races to go.”

Historically the Monza circuit hasn’t always favoured Red Bull. What are your thoughts going into the weekend? Max: “I expect Monza to suit Mercedes as it hasn’t been our best track for the last few years but this year we are more competitive so you never know. If we continue what we have been doing, working well together as a team, and nail every little detail then we can be competitive but Mercedes might have a top speed advantage on us. The track looks easy on paper but it’s actually quite difficult to nail a lap there because with a low downforce set up and the long braking zone the car is moving around quite a lot. It’s a bumpy track with quite old tarmac and the fans there are really passionate about racing and Formula 1. Naturally, there is always a lot of Ferrari support there but the fans just love F1 and it’s great to see that energy with the Italians.

Red Bull are second in the constructors standings. Who do you see having the advantage at this stage of the championship? Max: “I don’t think either us or Mercedes have a big advantage over the other. At Zandvoort you could see in qualifying and the race that both of our cars are super close and Lewis was applying pressure for the entire race which meant we couldn’t afford to make any mistakes on the track, in the pit lane or on the pit wall, and we didn’t. I think it’s the finer details where you can make a difference. When you enter a race weekend you have to work hard as a team on the set-up and fine tuning the little details, that’s where the gains can be made.”

I struggle with the idea that the two cars were close in performance terms in Holland. Max double upshifted, losing 2-3 tenths and lost another 1.5 tenths with his drs not opening. The car had at least another 4.5 tenths on the mercs fastest lap time and that’s an absolutely epoch over a whole lap on such a short track. Just seems silly to argue otherwise.

[Gillian]

Its a myth that a car is built solely arround the needs of a single driver. No racing driver would demand a car to be build with excessive understeer or oversteer because it's detrimental. A well designed racing car is balanced and neutral with preferably a very slight tendency for understeer, not oversteer. I do not believe anyone who would claim to want a racing car to oversteer a lot or have a loose rear. Its such a tiring myth. I remember when Schumacher was dominating these stories would popup about how the car was fully build for him and others where unable to drive it because it was so loose etc. Now the same thing is said about Red Bull and Verstappen. Its just not true.

I am new here btw. Been reading for many many years but got a little tired of reading untruths so wanted to post my 2 cents. Not a Red Bull fan, but this thread is most fun to read.

[etusch]

Regarding 2nd drivers of RBR something struck me when listening to Beyond the Grid with Jock Clear. He said that most drivers who are good in the rain don’t like an oversteering car. He literally says: “people say Schumacher liked and oversteering car; that’s not true”.

As Verstappen is pretty well in the rain I asked myself: what if he also likes an understeering car and that’s why all his team mates can’t really get the car to work? As it is build all around Max, team mates try to get more out of the car by setting it up more oversteering (which much top drivers prefer if I’m not mistaken) and that causes them to have snap oversteer? And therefore they can’t really find a balance?

No. It is not that simple. If it would be so simple it would not take that long to get better with it. In the other hand Redbull would not struggle to find out true person. For example I have read some artice at F1 racing when Alonso got WDC with Renault for the first time, that says Alonso likes understeering and beyond car's understeering character he forces car to understeer. Whatever, if it were only about under or oversteering it would be easy to find right driver.

[etusch]

Its a myth that a car is built solely arround the needs of a single driver. No racing driver would demand a car to be build with excessive understeer or oversteer because it's detrimental. A well designed racing car is balanced and neutral with preferably a very slight tendency for understeer, not oversteer. I do not believe anyone who would claim to want a racing car to oversteer a lot or have a loose rear. Its such a tiring myth. I remember when Schumacher was dominating these stories would popup about how the car was fully build for him and others where unable to drive it because it was so loose etc. Now the same thing is said about Red Bull and Verstappen. Its just not true.

I am new here btw. Been reading for many many years but got a little tired of reading untruths so wanted to post my 2 cents. Not a Red Bull fan, but this thread is most fun to read.

I also can not believe how people buy that, redbull car is basically same and designed by same head designer, it had only changes according to rule needs. I didn't read anything that when Ricci beat Vettel with redbull car, redbull built car for Ricci instead of 4 time champ, and when Ricci left they rebuild car for Verstappen ?

[Gillian]

Exactly. Its just grasping at straws to give an explanation to what is perceived, because the truth is too hard to accept.

[RZS10]

Edited since i found the time to add a source

In an interview with sky Horner quite literally said that the car was built around Max' driving style:

Both in qualifying and in the race, the Mexican is clearly number two in the team. How does Horner explain that?
He refers to the special characteristics of the current RB16B and says that the car "certainly developed around Max' driving style", as the team boss puts it.

With regards to the drivers' involvement in development:

But by 2022, Perez will find it easier, says Horner. Formula 1 would then open a whole new chapter and technically start "from scratch". [...] In fact, Red Bull Perez has already been involved in "preparatory work" for 2022, says Horner. "That will of course intensify in the second half of the year. Checo will play a very active role there."

He also said that Max likes a nervous car on corner entry.

"This car is very nervous at the corner entry, as Max likes it," Red Bull team boss Horner said.

...
Those quotes are all from sky, that was after they confirmed Perez but before the Belgian GP when Horner explained why they kept him and why he was struggling.

So going by Horner's very own words it wouldn't really be a myth, both that a car will inevitably end up suiting a driver if he's with the team for long enough and that some drivers prefer a (obviously still balanced) but oversteery/nervous car on entry.

[Ryar]

It's a moot point to discuss if a car is built to a driver's style. Engineers simply put ideas together that makes a car goes faster. There are some drivers who have a set style of driving and there are others who adapt. Some cars concepts are just naturally easy to drive and some end up taking a lot of effort to extract performance, which only certain drivers can do.

Looking at struggles that Ricci is having at McLaren, i have a hunch he would have struggled at RB too from 2019 with the concept change at RB due to front wing regulation changes. Just like the trio of drivers that have struggled after him. It's just that Max has adapted, albeit with a lot of pain. No driver wants unpredictable car and so is Max. But if the fundamentals of design have a certain directional flaw and according to engineers it's delivering performance, then drivers have to adapt.

For anyone to say, a car is built for a driver's preference, even if Horner allegedly have said, deceives common sense of engineering. Set up can be tweaked to help a driver's preference, but not the design of a car.