FittingMechanics wrote: ↑23 Oct 2024, 15:37
mwillems wrote: ↑23 Oct 2024, 14:03
I think he was fully ahead though, all of his car was in front of Verstappen's before the braking zone. Feel free to correct me, but this is my view and what I can see. So it is an interesting one. Totally fine with how they looked at it, but I feel like the idea of what completes an overtake is part of the grey area, I'd dearly love for someone to show me where this is defined. If it isn't defined then I have to say, I would be very baffled to understand a sport that values overtaking as much as anything else, but hasn't defined what an overtake is and what the rules are that define an overtake.
To be fair, I didn't look at the positions before the straight and I was basing it on memory. From looking at the footage it does look like Norris had almost cleared Verstappen fully or even cleared him.
You are making a very valid point. If Norris is fully ahead, is he now a defender because he passed on the straight? If not why not?
I think that we can't really find a black and white rule for that as it is always under intepretation. One could say that Verstappen took a inside line which was slower over the straight but better for the corner, so he didn't really completely lose the position (as proved).
The simplest solution to that is to remove the difference between treatment of the attacking and defending drivers. If in both situations, inside line, outside line, ahead at apex or behind you have to leave the space, all of this is unimportant (when overtake is complete). The rule is super clear, if there is overlap you must leave the space. We will get better overtaking.
They made massive aero changes (and will do so again) but are unwilling to change the rule that would allow more side by side action? Who is leading this sport.
The point of the need for certain types of overlap though, are based on the prevention of divebombing and other manoeuvres with the potential to cause incidents. You can't be expected to make space at the very last second if someone is crazy with their brakes. And the other consideration is the ability for the stewards to make an accurate judgement.
I think that cameras on the nose and at the rear to demonstrate the position of any car either side of another car, plus braking telemetry. Or easier than that, cameras directly above all the braking zones who's timings are linked to the telemetry would fulfil the desire to see who is attacking or who is defending.
In this instance, I do think Norris was slightly ahead, but it is very close and the call is tight. But that is why I wonder what constitutes an overtake. Last year Hamilton was penalised at Singapore for using run off on the second corner after he'd overtaken Norris AND had hit the apex on the first corner after overtaking Norris. So if that isn't classed as a complete overtake and he is still gaining a place by going off track, then this certainly was.
As I say, this idea of what completes an overtake is something I'd love to understand more about.