2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

[Andres125sx]

You are still assigning intent here.
There is a difference between brake-testing to get someone to ram into you, or braking because you were instructed to let someone by, and that person is not passing you. And yes, he braked at a strange time and place, but that still doesn't mean he did it with intent - he was probably expecting Hamilton to pass by using the gap on the left, or maybe he didn't really consider that Lewis was so close behind him (yes, which is dumb, but not intentional) out of frustration that Lewis was not passing despite the instructions. Then there was the whole aspect of poor communication, with one driver being instructed on the pass, and the other not. All these things weigh in.

Maybe people don´t know, but a F1 car releasing the throttle slows down faster than any production car with full brakes applied. No need to hit the brakes to let any other car pass, much less when you´re at 150km/h at a 300km/h straight, and even less when the other car is at your gearbox

It was a brake test, plain and simple.

Yes I know. We could see him release the throttle, shift down, slow down, and wait for Hamilton to pass. Which Hamilton did not. At that point, it's not outrageous to think "maybe slowing down further will get the message across". And as said, it was poor judgement to do so given the position Lewis was at, but then again, the position that Lewis was at was poor judgement given the fact of how much Max was already slowing down. Miscommunication and poor judgement, not intent.

If you really think this, sorry to say this but you´re quite naive.

Max perfectly know Lewis was into his gearbox, hitting the brakes at that point is intentional, like it or not

[bonjon1979]

Brake testing you rival now leads to a virtual penalization with no real punishment?

FIA is ruining this sport. Brake testing someone is one of the DIRTIEST maneouvers any driver can do. But looks like Verstappen is free to do whatever he wants, legal or not.

It´s a shame what this sport is becoming

You are still assigning intent here.
There is a difference between brake-testing to get someone to ram into you, or braking because you were instructed to let someone by, and that person is not passing you. And yes, he braked at a strange time and place, but that still doesn't mean he did it with intent - he was probably expecting Hamilton to pass by using the gap on the left, or maybe he didn't really consider that Lewis was so close behind him (yes, which is dumb, but not intentional) out of frustration that Lewis was not passing despite the instructions. Then there was the whole aspect of poor communication, with one driver being instructed on the pass, and the other not. All these things weigh in.

Maybe people don´t know, but a F1 car releasing the throttle slows down faster than any production car with full brakes applied. No need to hit the brakes to let any other car pass, much less when you´re at 150km/h at a 300km/h straight, and even less when the other car is at your gearbox

It was a brake test, plain and simple.

He knew that if he let Lewis past, and didn't immediately have DRS the race was done. So as he passed the DRS line, he stomped on the brake to take him out.

[radosav]

you cant change their mind, they made their decision

Stop it, you're doing a disservice to yourself. This is not a matter of opinion, and you know that very well. Telemetry data is well established, indisputable, and he was penalized as a result. Not as much as he deserved, but everyone and their dog already knows why.

Again, the good thing about objective reality is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.

"not as much as he deserved..", you are talking nonsense and giving yourself right to judge stewards decisions and making it look like they were biased and taking it easy on Max.

[zeph]

The telemetry shows otherwise. Definitely brake check. Knowing that, I have a hard time coming up with any explanation other than bad intent.

I am not denying the telemetry shows he was braking. There's no disputing that if the data shows so. But there is a whole universe of interpretations, and the default assumption here seems to be a deliberate wipe-out attempt which I don't believe for a second. That would be way to risky (a DSQ would be catastrophal). I think it was just a matter of frustration. A thought of "Why doesn't this *** pass me, how much more obvious do I need to make it, well, I'll just slow down even more", at the wrong time and place.

I suppose that's possible. My impression is Verstappen doesn't think much about "risk" or consequences in the heat of the moment, and rightly so as there have been so few consequences.
But I will say I found Hamilton's reaction (or lack thereof) baffling, too, major brain fart on his part.

Still, it's an odd place to be slowing down that much on the racing line and then suddenly brake when your opponent is right behind you.

[Schuttelberg]

I have seen a lot of things written here and like in most things about life, people have already made up their minds based on their likes and dislikes. The bottom line for me is exactly what it has been from a long time ago and that is that there are no clear cut rules on how to go about racing. This "I have the corner and inside line" is the root cause of everything. Both drivers were in the wrong yesterday and to blame one bloke for causing a collision when the one behind ran into him with a huge overspeed advantage is just F1. Lewis was simply confused as to what was going on and he is spooked by Verstappen while the latter just did not know where to draw the line yesterday. He has a car performance deficit very clearly and he is trying every trick in the book with a few pages written by him to somehow hold on.

I think the track layout along with the timing of the event on the calendar added to the drama.

I honestly don't blame ANY driver for whatever has happened all year and the governing body is to blame. Make it black and white for the drivers and fans alike. Also, the race director and stewards need to be made independent in that the stewards need to sort out the driver behaviour stuff while Masi and his guys see race operations from a safety standpoint. The negotiations from him and RBR were outright pitiful.

[DChemTech]

Maybe people don´t know, but a F1 car releasing the throttle slows down faster than any production car with full brakes applied. No need to hit the brakes to let any other car pass, much less when you´re at 150km/h at a 300km/h straight, and even less when the other car is at your gearbox

It was a brake test, plain and simple.

Yes I know. We could see him release the throttle, shift down, slow down, and wait for Hamilton to pass. Which Hamilton did not. At that point, it's not outrageous to think "maybe slowing down further will get the message across". And as said, it was poor judgement to do so given the position Lewis was at, but then again, the position that Lewis was at was poor judgement given the fact of how much Max was already slowing down. Miscommunication and poor judgement, not intent.

If you really think this, sorry to say this but you´re quite naive.

Max perfectly know Lewis was into his gearbox, hitting the brakes at that point is intentional, like it or not

I strongly question Lewis' decision to be there in the first place. If a car is decelerating on the straight, why stay behind it - for all he knew it could be max had a problem, and then you just want to get past. And if he was suspecting Max would drive into him while overtaking, well, that would be an instant championship DSQ so it doesn't seem a really credible thought. And then still, if you do not want to pass, why stay behind the other car exactly? Why not move a bit to the side?

I suspect Max either expected Lewis would be moving left and misjudged that, or again, in frustration failed to consider the track position accordingly.

[Poleman]

For people here still trying to disregard the "brake test" intentional or not:

Verstappen had ticked all the wrong boxes right at that moment.First of all,that is not the correct way to give the position back to the cat behind.Hamilton did not have the information that he could repass so why not make it clear by staying right (or left for that matter) and ease of the throttle?

Second point,after Verstappen realizes that Hamilton didnt fall for his DRS trick stays in the middle of the track while decelerating and he knew well where Hamilton was behind him and he hits the brakes for no apparent reason (the "he wanted to make clear to Hamilton that he can pass" is complete BS,hell he could even stomp at the brakes when Hamilton was some hundred meters behind but he chose to do so when he was right behind him.

Third and most important thing that led to all this.Apparently poor Verstappen did not read the rules! How can you give the position back and plan all this in your head using the DRS to retake the position when it is clearly forbidden by the rules?!?! He was already swimming in a sea of violations before even the contact.

[bonjon1979]

I have seen a lot of things written here and like in most things about life, people have already made up their minds based on their likes and dislikes. The bottom line for me is exactly what it has been from a long time ago and that is that there are no clear cut rules on how to go about racing. This "I have the corner and inside line" is the root cause of everything. Both drivers were in the wrong yesterday and to blame one bloke for causing a collision when the one behind ran into him with a huge overspeed advantage is just F1. Lewis was simply confused as to what was going on and he is spooked by Verstappen while the latter just did not know where to draw the line yesterday. He has a car performance deficit very clearly and he is trying every trick in the book with a few pages written by him to somehow hold on.

I think the track layout along with the timing of the event on the calendar added to the drama.

I honestly don't blame ANY driver for whatever has happened all year and the governing body is to blame. Make it black and white for the drivers and fans alike. Also, the race director and stewards need to be made independent in that the stewards need to sort out the driver behaviour stuff while Masi and his guys see race operations from a safety standpoint. The negotiations from him and RBR were outright pitiful.

This is so wrong. It is clear that you are not allowed to cut across a corner with all 4 wheels off the track to overtake the car in front. It is clear that you are not allowed to drive off the track and in doing so cause another driver to go off track. This is clear and unambigious. It is also clear, that the commercial rights holder is seeing a huge revenue in Max Verstappen and his fans. They are loath to do anything to rein him in because of it, which is why we're in the situation we are in now, where his actions have become so egregious they have to act. Even if they do so in the most minimal way possible. Max was censured three times in this race, it could well have been more. He needs to be spoken to and warned that if it looks like he deliberately takes Hamilton off in the next race to try to win the championship, he will be DSQ'd from the championship. But that won't happen, so max will do it, take the 10 seconds or whatever nonsense penalty they give and take the championship.

[One and Only]

MV did no favours to himself yesterday. Brake testing is big NO NO in motorsport. However you turn it, it can't be justified. Whoever tries to justify it is naive at best. Also people claiming LH didn't know MV was giving him place back are quite delusional since LH himself said he knew what MV was trying to do (both to press and stewards). Also saying LH didn't want to pass because he was afraid of MV's reaction is quite contradictory with the fact that LH got so close behind MV. In hindsight both drivers could've react better, but then again brake testing from MV was just stupid and wrong. Though I can't blame MV 100% for being wild out there. FIA doesn't seem too interested in penalizing dirty driving with proper penalties. It's simply is worth to drive dirty these days.

[Incognito]

Poor Verstappen! Apparently, he's such a bad driver that, despite checking his mirrors constantly, he had no idea Hamilton was behind him when he stamped on the brakes.

That's the argument, right? That he's so incompetent that he didn't realise that Hamilton was directly behind when he braked in the middle of the straight?

I also love the equivalences. I'm sure the same people saying 'Brake testing isn't great, but not anticipating being brake tested is just as bad' were saying the same thing when Bottas wiped out both Red Bulls at Hungary? 'Sure, Bottas went in far too hot, but the Red Bulls could have anticipated that and taken different lines into the corner. In hindsight they all made errors of judgement and those errors are all exactly equivalent. In fact, secretly, really Hungary was Verstappen's fault and anyone who doesn't agree with me is biased.'

I genuinely don't know what more evidence is needed:-
There's no one else around.
Verstappen knows Hamilton is directly behind him (because Verstappen isn't a moron)
Verstappen stamps on the brakes.

There's a quote from an old British comedy that comes to mind:-
"I remember Massingbird's most famous case: the Case of the Bloody Knife. A man was found next to a murdered body. He had the knife in his hand. 13 witnesses had seen him stab the victim. And when the police arrived, he said "I'm glad I killed the bastard." Massingbird not only got him off; he got him knighted in the New Year's Honours List. And the relatives of the victim had to pay to wash the blood out of his jacket!"

[Shrieker]

"not as much as he deserved..", you are talking nonsense and giving yourself right to judge stewards decisions and making it look like they were biased and taking it easy on Max.

So you agree with everything else written there. Good, at least that's some progress.

Now, show me a deliberate brake test that got away with a penalty as low as 10 seconds.

[GrizzleBoy]

double

[radosav]

Poor Verstappen! Apparently, he's such a bad driver that, despite checking his mirrors constantly, he had no idea Hamilton was behind him when he stamped on the brakes.

That's the argument, right? That he's so incompetent that he didn't realise that Hamilton was directly behind when he braked in the middle of the straight?

I also love the equivalences. I'm sure the same people saying 'Brake testing isn't great, but not anticipating being brake tested is just as bad' were saying the same thing when Bottas wiped out both Red Bulls at Hungary? 'Sure, Bottas went in far too hot, but the Red Bulls could have anticipated that and taken different lines into the corner. In hindsight they all made errors of judgement and those errors are all exactly equivalent. In fact, secretly, really Hungary was Verstappen's fault and anyone who doesn't agree with me is biased.'

I genuinely don't know what more evidence is needed:-
There's no one else around.
Verstappen knows Hamilton is directly behind him (because Verstappen isn't a moron)
Verstappen stamps on the brakes.

There's a quote from an old British comedy that comes to mind:-
"I remember Massingbird's most famous case: the Case of the Bloody Knife. A man was found next to a murdered body. He had the knife in his hand. 13 witnesses had seen him stab the victim. And when the police arrived, he said "I'm glad I killed the bastard." Massingbird not only got him off; he got him knighted in the New Year's Honours List. And the relatives of the victim had to pay to wash the blood out of his jacket!"

ahaha, poor Ham , he knew Max was trying something funky so he didn't overtook him, instead he got close behind him as much as he could, don't make me laugh

[214270]

This is not a red-flaggable incident folks.



Oh and in other news, ALO had a nightmare race.

[radosav]

"not as much as he deserved..", you are talking nonsense and giving yourself right to judge stewards decisions and making it look like they were biased and taking it easy on Max.

So you agree with everything else written there. Good, at least that's some progress.

Now, show me a deliberate brake test that got away with a penalty as low as 10 seconds.

you really don't get it , do you!?!?