[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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GhostF1
GhostF1
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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diffuser wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 04:10
Bill wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 08:48
0.7 is an exaggeration in Hungary yes but here Max was only 8 seconds behind and just managing his pace while Lewis and Bottas were pushing each other according to them.

We saw towards the end the Honda powered cars were able to push a little bit harder perhaps they had better fuel efficiency than competitors or Mercedes were turned down because of reliability issues with Hulk or Williams in the past.
But they were behind the Renault PU in top speed. On a power circuit no less.

Hehehe. I'm enjoying this Bill ! :lol:

BTW you usually see the fuel efficiency at the beginning of the race (Cars are more ladened with fuel) or in the middle of the race when they save fuel by going to a certain pace. By the last 20 laps of the race, USUALLY, they have enough to get home. Especially in a race that had so many laps behind a pace car.
Lol where are they down?

All three recorded speed traps had them top of the charts and a number of kph above Renault across both teams?

Let's keep the banter to at least vaguely factual :lol:

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Wynters
Wynters
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Joined: 15 May 2016, 14:49

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Thank you for posting these. Please forgive my ignorance though, what are these tables showing?

Is it best times? Average times?

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Marti_EF3
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Joined: 30 May 2017, 00:45
Location: Spain

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wynters wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 15:57
Thank you for posting these. Please forgive my ignorance though, what are these tables showing?

Is it best times? Average times?
It's the average time during that stint

Wynters
Wynters
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Joined: 15 May 2016, 14:49

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Marti_EF3 wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 16:47
Wynters wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 15:57
Thank you for posting these. Please forgive my ignorance though, what are these tables showing?

Is it best times? Average times?
It's the average time during that stint
Thank you!

Do you know how the Safety Cars and punctures are handled? Are those laps included or excluded? Similarly, are the laps ending / beginning with a pitstop excluded?

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Marti_EF3
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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All no representative laps that are too slow (pit stop or behind SC) are excluded to have a more accurate real pace

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diffuser
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Location: Montreal

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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GhostF1 wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 07:39
diffuser wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 04:10
Bill wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 08:48
0.7 is an exaggeration in Hungary yes but here Max was only 8 seconds behind and just managing his pace while Lewis and Bottas were pushing each other according to them.

We saw towards the end the Honda powered cars were able to push a little bit harder perhaps they had better fuel efficiency than competitors or Mercedes were turned down because of reliability issues with Hulk or Williams in the past.
But they were behind the Renault PU in top speed. On a power circuit no less.

Hehehe. I'm enjoying this Bill ! :lol:

BTW you usually see the fuel efficiency at the beginning of the race (Cars are more ladened with fuel) or in the middle of the race when they save fuel by going to a certain pace. By the last 20 laps of the race, USUALLY, they have enough to get home. Especially in a race that had so many laps behind a pace car.
Lol where are they down?

All three recorded speed traps had them top of the charts and a number of kph above Renault across both teams?

Let's keep the banter to at least vaguely factual :lol:

https://ibb.co/2NkMzQm

https://ibb.co/T1tm0df

https://ibb.co/fSfH1Gj

I don't use top speed number to be a difinative measure of PU power. I actually like to avoid those conversations. Whichj was why I was teasing Bill. If I would, I would never use the race top speed numbers for ACTUAL top speed numbers. Too many variables in a race that would vary your top speed. Stuff like traffic, tire wear, fuel, etc. The Feweast variables are Quali.


Often The Finish line and the speed traps are on the same straight. Also there is a curve coming out on to the straight. I like to compare who's on the top for speed at the finish line and then again speed trap. If car A is ahead of car B at the Finish line and then Car B is ahead of car A at the speed trap, you can say that car B is running less DF(less drag). Or Car A has more mechanical grip (depending on the track of course).

Revs84
Revs84
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Pirelli have just released an update on the tyre situation during the last GP. They mention the longer stint together with additional forces from the 2020 cars to be the main culprits. In all probability, the tyre pressure will be increased in next Sunday's GP.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... mg1hE.html

Together with the fact that the tyre allocation will be one step softer, I do wonder how this will affect lap times and degradation.

I still expect a 2 stop race, possibly M-H-M or M-H-H for whoever starts on Mediums and an S-H-H for whoever starts on softs. Possibly a third stop for Soft for the fastest lap, as I doubt anyone will manage a M-H-S.

With that said, this will all depend on how the additional tyre pressure will affect the tyre grip and degradation. Going to be an interesting race that's for sure. Just hoping RB will be in the mix and that the Mercs won't drive off in the sunset...

Wynters
Wynters
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Joined: 15 May 2016, 14:49

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Marti_EF3 wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 16:47
Wynters wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 15:57
Thank you for posting these. Please forgive my ignorance though, what are these tables showing?

Is it best times? Average times?
It's the average time during that stint
Thank you!

It's amusing that, thanks to the strange circumstances of those first 11 laps, Grosjean has the 4th fastest 1st stint average time and the 4th fastest 2nd stint average time, yet finished 17th :D .

Do you think there is a way to avoid that sort of anomaly? Perhaps a column showing the number of laps included in the calculation?

Trying to match your calculations, I end up with slightly different timings though.

I have the Mercedes as 0.914 faster in the first stint (Laps 1 + 6-12)
And the Mercedes as 0.419 faster in the second stint (Ham laps 19-47 and Ver laps 19-49)
That would put the overall pace difference at 0.504.

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
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Joined: 10 Mar 2019, 03:54

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wynters wrote:
Marti_EF3 wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 16:47
Wynters wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 15:57
Thank you for posting these. Please forgive my ignorance though, what are these tables showing?

Is it best times? Average times?
It's the average time during that stint
Thank you!

It's amusing that, thanks to the strange circumstances of those first 11 laps, Grosjean has the 4th fastest 1st stint average time and the 4th fastest 2nd stint average time, yet finished 17th :D .

Do you think there is a way to avoid that sort of anomaly? Perhaps a column showing the number of laps included in the calculation?

Trying to match your calculations, I end up with slightly different timings though.

I have the Mercedes as 0.914 faster in the first stint (Laps 1 + 6-12)
And the Mercedes as 0.419 faster in the second stint (Ham laps 19-47 and Ver laps 19-49)
That would put the overall pace difference at 0.504.
Your calculation is a better representation of the pace difference for both teams


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wynters
Wynters
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Joined: 15 May 2016, 14:49

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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SmallSoldier wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 18:37
Your calculation is a better representation of the pace difference for both teams
Perhaps. Hopefully (otherwise I'm wasting a lot of people's time).

Would it be worth breaking it down further?

The first few laps are confused and teams may well have been shooting for different strategies. Perhaps RBR were aiming to go long and so were going slower than they could have. Fortunately, the race is neatly equalised with the second Safety Car causing the key players to pit on the same lap and bunching them up nicely. I think we can also be confident that everyone was going to try to go to the end from there so the strategies should be equal too.

Looking at just lap 19 to lap 47 (I've chosen there because Hamilton's times drop by nearly half a second on lap 48, his slowest lap for 16 laps, and Bottas has already started dropping time due to tyre issues so it's not unlikely that Hamilton was slowing as a precaution):-

Hamilton crosses the line after the restart with a gap of 1.52 seconds. He crosses the line at the end of 47 with a gap of 14.794 seconds.

That gives us 0.458 seconds per lap.

If we assume that drivers would have their cars turned up to push more in the first half of the stint to open a gap / close for an overtake and that the pace would be more representative of both cars fighting, the average gap would be 0.568 seconds a lap.

To add some detail. The table below contains the figures for the average time (per lap) at the end of that lap (not the individual lap times).
Image

E.g. On the 'Lap 20' line, the figure of 1:30.453 for Hamilton is the average of his Lap 19 lap time (1:30.534) and his Lap 20 lap time (1:30.371).

On the 'Lap 21' line the figure of 1:30.364 for Hamilton is the average of his Lap 19 lap time (1:30.534) and his Lap 20 lap time (1:30.371) and his lap 21 time (1:30.188).

The same applies for Verstappen (e.g. Lap 21 time of 1:31.420 is the combination of his Lap 19 time of 1:32.334, his lap 20 time of 1:31.096 and his Lap 21 time of 1:30.830).

Lap 19 is confusing because the average time is also the lap time (the only lap this is true of).

The 'Pace dif.' column indicates the average difference in pace from the start of lap 19 to that point in the race.

I suspect I've explained it poorly :(

Maybe some graphs would help? The first is the graph of the table above. The second is the traditional lap time graph.
Image

Image

I wonder how much of that first lap is DAS? Something to keep an eye on (I'll see if I've got time to look at the various other restarts). As a comparison, Bottas pulls c.1.4 seconds on Verstappen that lap.

Lap 41 is also a little weird (1:29.070)... :wtf:

All feedback /corrections welcome. I'm bound to have made some mistakes and there may be too much info (or too little) and it might (almost certainly) be poorly presented.

*It's all speculation of course, who knows what modes the various cars were in.

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Sieper
73
Joined: 14 Mar 2017, 15:19

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Lap 41 is waiting, waiting, waiting, finally mercs tires are over the hill, now Max goes for fastest lap (as mer was doing the whole race long) in an effort to try and seal that one point.

tangodjango
tangodjango
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Joined: 14 Mar 2020, 23:38

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wynters wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 19:50
SmallSoldier wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 18:37
Your calculation is a better representation of the pace difference for both teams
Perhaps. Hopefully (otherwise I'm wasting a lot of people's time).

Would it be worth breaking it down further?

The first few laps are confused and teams may well have been shooting for different strategies. Perhaps RBR were aiming to go long and so were going slower than they could have. Fortunately, the race is neatly equalised with the second Safety Car causing the key players to pit on the same lap and bunching them up nicely. I think we can also be confident that everyone was going to try to go to the end from there so the strategies should be equal too.

Looking at just lap 19 to lap 47 (I've chosen there because Hamilton's times drop by nearly half a second on lap 48, his slowest lap for 16 laps, and Bottas has already started dropping time due to tyre issues so it's not unlikely that Hamilton was slowing as a precaution):-

Hamilton crosses the line after the restart with a gap of 1.52 seconds. He crosses the line at the end of 47 with a gap of 14.794 seconds.

That gives us 0.458 seconds per lap.

If we assume that drivers would have their cars turned up to push more in the first half of the stint to open a gap / close for an overtake and that the pace would be more representative of both cars fighting, the average gap would be 0.568 seconds a lap.

To add some detail. The table below contains the figures for the average time (per lap) at the end of that lap (not the individual lap times).
https://imgbb.com/

E.g. On the 'Lap 20' line, the figure of 1:30.453 for Hamilton is the average of his Lap 19 lap time (1:30.534) and his Lap 20 lap time (1:30.371).

On the 'Lap 21' line the figure of 1:30.364 for Hamilton is the average of his Lap 19 lap time (1:30.534) and his Lap 20 lap time (1:30.371) and his lap 21 time (1:30.188).

The same applies for Verstappen (e.g. Lap 21 time of 1:31.420 is the combination of his Lap 19 time of 1:32.334, his lap 20 time of 1:31.096 and his Lap 21 time of 1:30.830).

Lap 19 is confusing because the average time is also the lap time (the only lap this is true of).

The 'Pace dif.' column indicates the average difference in pace from the start of lap 19 to that point in the race.

I suspect I've explained it poorly :(

Maybe some graphs would help? The first is the graph of the table above. The second is the traditional lap time graph.
https://ibb.co/NyLrQGt

https://ibb.co/Z8P8v1N

I wonder how much of that first lap is DAS? Something to keep an eye on (I'll see if I've got time to look at the various other restarts). As a comparison, Bottas pulls c.1.4 seconds on Verstappen that lap.

Lap 41 is also a little weird (1:29.070)... :wtf:

All feedback /corrections welcome. I'm bound to have made some mistakes and there may be too much info (or too little) and it might (almost certainly) be poorly presented.

*It's all speculation of course, who knows what modes the various cars were in.
That seems very reasonable considering the Merc's seem to have been turning their engines down after the first pit stop. Half a second in race pace with upto 3-tenths more than that over a 5-10 lap stint with the engines turned up seems an accurate representation as opposed to the 3-tenths on race pace spiel that Horner has been trying to sell as usual. It seems that the championships are unfortunately done and dusted till 2022 as Mercedes will not be sitting still on upgrades for 1.5 years. What a pity honestly. I wouldn't really be surprised if they make an similar engine upgrade next year to be honest at this point 😓
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

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Sieper
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Joined: 14 Mar 2017, 15:19

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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I would. I don’t think the upgrade is legit. Problem is policing. See what Ferrari has been doing for a few years, ever expanding on it. Until...

Yeah until what. We don’t know. FIA wont say. Mer is also doing something I think.

Wynters
Wynters
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Joined: 15 May 2016, 14:49

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Sieper wrote:
05 Aug 2020, 14:01
Lap 41 is waiting, waiting, waiting, finally mercs tires are over the hill, now Max goes for fastest lap (as mer was doing the whole race long) in an effort to try and seal that one point.
If that's the case, then would Albon have been ordered not to go for fastest lap as he was on better and fresher rubber (and would go on to set a 1:28.689)? I would also be worried, if I were Red Bull, that the Mercedes cruising-to-preserve-tyres pace (Hamilton had just set a run of 1:29.2s) was only 2/10ths slower than a Red Bull turned up to 11 for a fastest lap attempt.

I'm also not sure if they would feel the need to pit Verstappen? On Lap 46, Verstappen's race engineer reports that "We're monitoring it (the tyre) and we're happy. We are happy." So, with the Mercedes tyres exhausted and unable to go faster (thus meaning Verstappen's 1:29.0 was enough), and the tyres fine, why pit? There's lots that can go wrong at a pitstop and they've already got the fastest lap safe. It would be a needless risk.

Red Bull also badly misjudged it. Bottas also set his fastest lap on Lap 41 and, over the next two laps, reset the gap to the 10.5 seconds it was before Verstappen pushed. Hamilton set his fastest lap on lap 45 (although as you can see from the graph, that doesn't represent him pushing, just fuel burning off).

Why do you think Mercedes were pushing for fastest lap 'the whole race long'?

Wynters
Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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According to the FIA, Verstappen's LHS rear tyre was so badly damaged during Q2 that they had to replace it to be able to start the race. Same for his LHS front wing endplate foot plate gurney.