Webber's KERS

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JimClarkFan
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Re: Webber's KERS

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Lycoming wrote:I think the sample size is too small, even going by number of races between the two of them since 2011, it probably isn't that unlikely to have such an unequal distribution of failures. That said, I havn't actually run the numbers, but there are ways of doing so, but I think you need to come up with some sort baseline KERS failure rate first.
It could be, but we won't know until we run them.

Any reported failure in KERS that affects either race or qualifying performance would be a definition, to simplify we can take that to mean a KERS failure of any kind during Q1/2/3 and the race. That seems like a fairly decent and easy to interpret definition.

If we consider a KERS failure as our only dependant variable then it could be pretty straight forward hypothesis, there may well be more than one dependant variable involved, but initially you would want to see if there was simply some kind of failure rate difference:
-If yes you can explore further.
-If no then no exploration is possible until there is a statistical difference.

Our n number would simply be the number of races since the reintroduction of KERS.

In which case our hypothesis is that:
''Webber has a statistically greater failure rate of KERS than Vettel.''

...And our null hypothesis is therefore that:
''There is no statistical difference between the failure rate of KERS between Webber and Vettel.''

The frequency of failure rate is simply measured per race, with each race counting as a separate data point.


From there one would apply a statistical test, a Chi-squared test is where my stats book is directing me, thought I had initially thought a simple T test though?

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raymondu999
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Re: Webber's KERS

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Been a while since I've approached stats. But given that we have a very distinct time measurement - race weekends - should we not take Poisson instead? We can take the unit of time to be number of race weekends, and we can take the Poisson mean to be Vettel's average number of failures per race weekend?
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Lycoming
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Re: Webber's KERS

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You could indeed do poisson. It will tell you the likelihood of webber having as many failures as he did in the time frame that he did; A large part of the validity of that will come from how valid it is to use Vettel's average number of failures, and I would be doubtful of that. It's impossible to say whether Webber is very unlucky, or Vettel is very lucky.

However, if it shows a reasonable chance of Webber's situation occuring anyways, that should at least show its not a completely unreasonable coincidence.

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raymondu999
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Re: Webber's KERS

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So then use the average Red Bull KERS failures. The number of failures occurring in the last 40 race weekends (18 in 2011 - as they didn't use KERS in Australia, 20 in 2012, 1 in 2013) divided by 80 (that's 40 race weekends, multiplied over 2 cars) and then take that as the mean.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Webber's KERS

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Cylinder wrote:Today's gem was apparently an ''ECU failure'' which caused the KERS issue.....so i read elsewhere....... it's getting beyond a joke now, i'm suprised Webber hasn't said anything in Public yet because it's borderline farcial, if its a legit problem, you would think Red Bull should be bending over backwards to get it sorted.
edit: Apparently webber had a double whammy, ecu failure which messed up his starting settings AND Kers failure. :lol:
We all know that the new 2014 ECU is generating a lot of glitches. That's why it is being field tested and introduced this year ahead of the V6 turbo introduction. Webber's electronic failures were not an isolated thing. The ECU glitch obviously caused both of his problems, the clutch problem at the start and the loss of KERS until they reset the ECU mid race and fixed the problems. He fared better than Rosberg who lost the ECU during the race and had to retire. And I suspect that Hulk's fuel problems were also ECU related. The FiA experienced a complete black out of their marshalling system as a consequence of the ECU glitches. All these systems are new and unproven in this year's cars. So Red Bull's problems are not a surprise. Their KERS system is traditionally very vulnerable to electronic woes. It is said that it is a very complex system which comprises super capacitors and conventional batteries. And if they have components that are marginally more stable they are likely to give them to their number one driver. That is only natural. Ferrari would do exactly the same. But we don't know if this is actually the case. Webber's bad luck with KERS could be just that, bad luck.
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Shakeman
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Re: Webber's KERS

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It'll be interesting to see how RB deal with KERS in 2014. Not an era of F1 that you'll want to continually have KERS problems in.

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Bomber_Pilot
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Re: Webber's KERS

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Peter van Manen, the managing director of MES, told AUTOSPORT: "There was an issue with Mark Webber's data system in the garage during the formation lap. The ECU on the car was fine." Interesting :twisted:

JimClarkFan
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Re: Webber's KERS

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Poisson test would seem to be fine, now, who has got the failure rates :mrgreen:

aral
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Re: Webber's KERS

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Bomber_Pilot wrote:Peter van Manen, the managing director of MES, told AUTOSPORT: "There was an issue with Mark Webber's data system in the garage during the formation lap. The ECU on the car was fine." Interesting :twisted:
The software used on the car, and in the garage is supplied by MES. The pit could not receive the telemetry, and MES are saying they are working with RBR to resolve the issue. So basically, the problem lies at MES door, and Whitmarsh has admitted that there are teething problems. The same problems that afflicited testing.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Webber's KERS

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gilgen wrote:
Bomber_Pilot wrote:Peter van Manen, the managing director of MES, told AUTOSPORT: "There was an issue with Mark Webber's data system in the garage during the formation lap. The ECU on the car was fine." Interesting :twisted:
The software used on the car, and in the garage is supplied by MES. The pit could not receive the telemetry, and MES are saying they are working with RBR to resolve the issue. So basically, the problem lies at MES door, and Whitmarsh has admitted that there are teething problems. The same problems that afflicited testing.
Yep, sounds like MES are trying to get out of this. If the MES supplied telemetry system made Red Bull go blind on Webber's car all kind of secondary system problems can be attributed to this glitch. I think it it would be fairer to take it on the chin and admit that they are having teething problems. It is only natural to expect them from a brand new system. I remeber from the time before the standard ECU how often teems had electronic glitches. You cannot expect to develop something that complex without teething issues.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

muhammadtalha-13
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Re: Webber's KERS

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I think it's just beacause Webbers name matches with kers and kers seem to be hating this MAR-K-ERS. hehehe :mrgreen: :lol:

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Gridlock
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Re: Webber's KERS

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Are they still running a 40kW unit instead of 60, as in 2011? Keeps being alluded to but haven't seen a definitive statement.

If so then I'd wager that this, coupled with supercaps and/or their novel placement of the batteries etc suggests theirs is the most 'experimental' KERS unit on the grid (seeing how Williams can't run their own brand) and the failure rate reflects this. Luckily this is down to a poor weighting from Mr Newey et al (KERS vs aero) so the risk is balanced.

A cynic, or someone who reads Red Bulletin, might think that a certain amount of 'reliability grading' occurs, and the higher ones end up on the lower numbered cars...
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Richard
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Re: Webber's KERS

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You don't need to be a cynic, it's common to trial parts on the number 2 car. We heard about it a few times last season when team trialled replacement alternators, water pumps, fuel pumps, etc.

Also RB have pushed KERS cooling to the limit from the first day it was used, its no surprise that they continue to experiment with different bits.

aussiegman
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Re: Webber's KERS

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MCS have publicly apologised for the software glitch that affected Mark's car in Australia.

A lot of teams have reported issues with the new control ECU. Be interesting if McLaren F1 has had any issues....

Mark does have an inordinate number of KERS related issues and other problems. Conspiracy Theories abound however when he gets up and openly states "Not bad for a number 2 driver" has parts removed to be placed on Vettle's current Kinky Kylie or Hungry Heidi and when Helmut MARKO openly says he should go it does create a certain amount of questionable activities.

RBR keep Mark as he is a very solid driver who now Barrichello and Schumacher are gone has some of the best technical and setup experience in the paddock as well as often posting fastest laps. Horner and Mark get on very well. They need a solid team mate for Seb.
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vikram_d
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Re: Webber's KERS

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McLaren apologizes to Webber as stated above. Link to the article

http://en.espnf1.com/mclaren/motorsport ... 03547.html