Getting around testing restrictions?

[Cam]

As mentioned in my above post. The Regulations do not allow it. There is more, but this is the gist.

22) TRACK AND WIND TUNNEL TESTING
22.1 Track testing shall be considered any track running time not part of an Event undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship, using cars which conform substantially with the current Formula One Technical Regulations in addition to those from the previous or subsequent year. The only exception is that each competitor is permitted up to eight promotional events, carried out using tyres provided specifically for this purpose by the appointed supplier, to a maximum distance of 100kms per event.
22.2 Track testing may only be carried out using cars which have been subjected to, and fulfilled the requirements of, the tests described in Articles 16.2-6, 17.2-3 and 18.2-9 of the F1 Technical Regulations.
Furthermore, any car used for track testing must be fitted with the panels described in Articles 15.4.7 and 15.4.8 of the F1 Technical Regulations.
22.3 No competitor may carry out more than 15,000km of track testing during a calendar year.
22.4 No track testing may take place:
a) Whilst a Championship Event is taking place.
b) With more than one car per day at any such test.
c) Before 09.00 or after 18.00 on any day at any such test.
d) On any track located outside Europe without the agreement of the majority of teams and the FIA.
e) During the month of August except under (h)(iii) below.
f) During the month of January.
g) Between 1 February and the start of the week preceding the first Event of the Championship of the same year with the exception of three team tests of no more than four consecutive days duration, carried out on a site approved by the FIA for Formula 1 cars.
h) Between the start of a ten day period which precedes the start of the first Event of the Championship and 31 December of the same year with the following exceptions :

[coaster]

What would stop a team from building a rolling road surface with an abrasive surface?

Like a a big grinding wheel with one sides front suspension geometry (since there is usually design symmetry ) and test a tyre with different geometry, spring rate and damping? The back wheels would not be so critical, apart from putting power down and following the front like a trailer would.

4 post shaker rigs were the norm during the era of non budget restrictions, unsure if they fit in the current budget though?

[Richard]

The teams don't keep any tyres, Pirelli take them away after every race.

[Tim.Wright]

What would stop a team from building a rolling road surface with an abrasive surface?

Like a a big grinding wheel with one sides front suspension geometry (since there is usually design symmetry ) and test a tyre with different geometry, spring rate and damping? The back wheels would not be so critical, apart from putting power down and following the front like a trailer would.

4 post shaker rigs were the norm during the era of non budget restrictions, unsure if they fit in the current budget though?

You mean a single suspension corner with a rolling road surface? What will that tell you? You are cutting out all of the dynamics associated with the body and the road irregularities. Basically all of the important stuff. Changes dampers on such a rig will have no effect as well.

Why are the rears not so critical? To me the rear is more important since its responsible for traction and stability, as well as being the most highly loaded.

[turbof1]

Okay so here's a related question...

Can Honda test their new V6 engine as much as they want during 2014?

And if so, is there anything to prevent McLaren giving Honda an MP4-29 to fit the engine to and test...if it's Honda doing the tests and not McLaren as Honda aren't involved in F1 uring 2014...??

Michael also ruled out the possibility of Honda getting a McLaren car early for testing purposes, as the regulations will not allow it.

"The testing regulations cover last year's and next year's car, so McLaren as a team could not give them a 2014 chassis for them to run with," he said.

"We couldn't give them the 2013 chassis either to run in 2014. That's in the sporting code."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107767

Still leaves one concern though: teams are going to run one extra test during pre season to get to grips with the new engines. Will Honda also get an extra test?

[Cam]

Maybe that's the price Honda pay for not starting in 2014?

[turbof1]

Maybe that's the price Honda pay for not starting in 2014?

Perhaps, but it's something they don't have in their hands anyway. Mclaren is stuck to the mercedes contract and developing a new f1 engine on such short notice is impossible. It would be atleast fair if they are given the same oppertunity.

I still feel like mclaren could just as well design a non-representative chassis, put relevant suspension on it and give that to Honda to test it. It's pure for engine testing, so the car does not have to "conform substantially" with current regulations to have a meaningful test. Hel, if I were mclaren I would design a car with ground effect to make it illegally to run during f1 races, just to make sure it does not conform.

It goes without saying that pre-2014 cars cannot be tested because sidepods volume will increase. So the argument made by mclaren that under current regulations they can't use the 2013 car is irrelevant anyway.

[SiLo]

Will the sidepod volume increase a lot? The engine will be smaller and generate less heat, so radiators will be smaller, but then you have to add the size of the turbo coolers also.

I think getting around testing is probably not too difficult, but what if one of the other teams finds out? What are the repercussions of testing when there is a ban, even if it is a quasi test without a real F1 car?

[turbof1]

Will the sidepod volume increase a lot? The engine will be smaller and generate less heat, so radiators will be smaller, but then you have to add the size of the turbo coolers also.

I think getting around testing is probably not too difficult, but what if one of the other teams finds out? What are the repercussions of testing when there is a ban, even if it is a quasi test without a real F1 car?

Let's not forget the new ERS systems, M-GUH and M-GUK (I hate those names!), which are much bigger then the current KERS.

There are no restrictions on what you described. Though it is a massively grey area. "conform substantially" isn't exactly telling in concrete terms in what teams have to comply. I however don't see problems with it. Say Honda gets out with the crazy idea to put the V6 F1 engines inside Civics. All those road cars driving around, is that testing?
Besides that, they are allowed to 8 promotional events running on show tyres for each event 100km only. Seems ideal to exploit for testing engines.

[coaster]

Hi Tim, my instincts on the back wheels are that under heavy braking into corners are the rears barely put any pressure on the road given all the weight transfer, but maybe I've gotten sidetracked with tyre testing when the discussion is now focussed on turbo era implications, namely Honda.

I suppose given aerodynamic loading, all my notions of suspension loading based on road cars is pretty much not related.
I guess thats what Porsche were alluding to, the transfer of technology is not very direct given the nature of F1 aero grip.

[Cam]

Looks like Honda found a way. Unconfirmed.

Wednesday 12 June at 08:35 : Jun.12 (GMM) Amid reports he could re-emerge at Ferrari or Red Bull, it appears former Lotus technical director James Allison is actually Honda-bound.

Allison is currently on 'gardening leave', after stepping down from his duties but remaining under contract to Lotus.

In the Finnish newspaper Turun Sanomat, correspondent Luis Vasconcelos claims his next destination is the Japanese marque Honda, who are returning to F1 in 2015 for a works engine collaboration with the great British team McLaren.

The move would appear to make sense, as Honda moves to quickly get up to speed with new rules after a five-year absence from F1, and McLaren reels from the departure to Mercedes of its highly rated technical director Paddy Lowe.

Vasconcelos said Briton Allison will apparently start his new job in 2014, long before Honda is bound by F1's regulations governing its 2015 foray.

That will mean the Japanese marque is free to run and develop its 2.4 litre V6 design throughout 2014 with a test car, and Turun Sanomat said these tests are likely to take place at the Japanese circuits Suzuka and Motegi.

Vasconcelos said: "According to our sources, Allison has accepted the offer and will lead a small group to produce a car for the testing of Honda's turbo engine."

[oT v1]

Interesting for sure, so would his best bits get integrated into the maclaren when Honda comes in? Or will they run development on both side by side with the advantage that the Honda can test 24/7?

I think it's a bit odd that someone at the top of his game would take a year out of the limelight too, I'd expect him to try and remain 'current' in the paddock, at least for his ego :\

[ESPImperium]

Allison has struck me as someone who is devoid of ego, a rarity in F1 i feel, however it isnt the first time that Honda have taken a year developing a engine, Toyota also. The cars they tested were the Honda RA099 and the Toyota TF101 were poor, but their engines weren't.

I think it is a plausible idea where Allison is, however there is one thing, who would supply the tyres for the project? Pirelli wouldn't be allowed, so that leaves Michelin supplying WSR rubber or Bridgestone to supply Super Formula rubber.

The lead times are all within good timeframe, designing a Chassis to F1 spec would take about 6 months with a good design team of 45, take in the 16 weeks build time for the chassis with another 4 to 6 in build up. That would put you right in the middle of the end of the Japanese winter. If Honda got a good 6 months hard testing from May to October in varying conditions using the Motegi climate.

The project would need 100 people on the chassis side with 550+ on the engine side of things. As for a driver for the car, there is plenty around that can do the job. McLaren could supply transmission and rear end as they will have 20 guys that wont be at Force India next year, they could be seconded for a year i guess.

I think Honda, McLaren and a tyre supplier can get around the testing restrictions to get the engine tested. Its plausible, however a logistically difficult idea.

However, McLaren may make a Bastard car for one or all of the in season tests next year for Honda to have power train in, like BMW Saubers C24B, Williams FW26C chassis for the change in engine supplier and many of the teams did with a bastard 2006 car for the change from V10 to V8. I think the supply of a 4 year old car with updates would be far better and outside test regs even better.

Lets see what happens.

[Cam]

The tyre supply is a good point. Is there any chance McLaren have squirrelled some away over the years, awaiting this situation? Is that even possible? What about Michelin, could they use their rubber in an attempt to hedge bets that's the way the supply will go?

Could Michelin recreate the Pirelli rubber and supply Honda as a standalone product?

[aral]

The tyre supply is a good point. Is there any chance McLaren have squirrelled some away over the years, awaiting this situation?

The tyres have to be returned to Pirelli after each race, so nobody can spirit any away.