Newey, Chapman, Postlethwaite, Barnard, Byrne, Murray, et al

[flmkane]

it took him a while to nail the design and it was Patrick Head who was able to somewhat harness Newey and make him what he is todays.

Adrian Newey was way out in front of Patrick Head. In reality Newey was stifled by him and it's one of the reasons why the Williams team finds itself in the position it is in right now.

The modern Adrian Newey and the man from 20 years ago are very different. He would not have been able to achieve the level of success that he did without Patrick Head. Newey is an aero genius, but in that era of F1 when aero was a component of a much larger picture, including engine, suspension and computer technology, Patrick Head was the man who pulled it all together into the beastly Williams Renault cars of the early 90s.

Newey may have been the aero lead. But Patrick Head was the man behind active suspension, ABS, traction control and too many other aspects of the Williams cars to list. Being under the tutelage of such a great engineer taught Newey to engineer a car as a whole, a machine with aerodynamics integrated with it's other aspects.

To say that Patrick Head stifled Newey is to dismiss the technological developments that man contributed to, with many years of testing and racing and claim that Williams in the 90s was faster solely because of aerodynamics. Let us remember that from 2000-2005, Newey designed some extremely fast and aerodynamic Mclarens which range from brittle to dangerous. Not to say that he is a bad designer, in fact all that failure probably honed him into the formidable force he is today.

[xpensive]

...
Agree completely. Chapman was one of the unquestioned greats, whose work led to F1 cars as we now know them. Another name only old-timers will remember and appreciate: Mauro Forgheiri (SP?) capable of designing engines, transmissions, chassis, and aero -- all under terrible conditions (technical chaos; political back-stabbing).

I agree Don, Forghieri was perhaps the last of the multi-discipline engineers in F1, he designed everything and even discovered ground-effect in the early 70s, though he did not really understand it. Without him Ferrari would have been done in F1 by 1974.

He later created an engine for Lamborghini that embarrassed Ferrari, on a fraction of their budget, only had Ron understood.

Of Chapman I'm not so sure, he might have been an innovator, but I doubt if he ever designed anything himself, he always had the likes of Maurice Phillippe and Peter wright to do that, didn't he?

[flmkane]

...
Agree completely. Chapman was one of the unquestioned greats, whose work led to F1 cars as we now know them. Another name only old-timers will remember and appreciate: Mauro Forgheiri (SP?) capable of designing engines, transmissions, chassis, and aero -- all under terrible conditions (technical chaos; political back-stabbing).

I agree Don, Forghieri was perhaps the last of the multi-discipline engineers in F1, he designed everything and even discovered ground-effect in the early 70s, though he did not really understand it. Without him Ferrari would have been done in F1 by 1974.

He later created an engine for Lamborghini that embarrassed Ferrari, on a fraction of their budget, only had Ron understood.

Of Chapman I'm not so sure, he might have been an innovator, but I doubt if he ever designed anything himself, he always had the likes of Maurice Phillippe and Peter wright to do that, didn't he?

I dont know if it's generally well known, but Chapman was a structural engineer. His designs demonstrate that background, especially the monocoque chassis and the use of the engine as a stressed member. I believe this implies that he exercised significant effort in actually designing the cars. Ofcourse I could be very wrong

[xpensive]

...
Of Chapman I'm not so sure, he might have been an innovator, but I doubt if he ever designed anything himself, he always had the likes of Maurice Phillippe and Peter wright to do that, didn't he?

I dont know if it's generally well known, but Chapman was a structural engineer. His designs demonstrate that background, especially the monocoque chassis and the use of the engine as a stressed member. I believe this implies that he exercised significant effort in actually designing the cars. Ofcourse I could be very wrong

I think that is true for the Lotus 25, where he pioneered the monocoque and adjustable suspension, but I'm not so sure about 49, 72, 79 and 88?

[marcush.]

COLIN Chapmann :

http://colinchapmanmuseum.org.uk/?page_id=169

coming from that side ,i´d say he was a universal genius of sorts not just an innovative designer.Charismatic and exploitive of other talent around him ...

Strikingly his best ideas were more of the kind of grabbing ideas and adapting them for his own use (chapman strut ,Monocoque Chassis, Backbone chassis)


what a cool personality .

[Tommy Cookers]

I can remember the 1960 French GP on live TV
Mr Chapman accosted the starter and so delayed the start
while the Lotus mechanics welded the cracked spaceframe on the starting grid !

it cracked because for the works cars ACBC chose the high strength Reynolds 531 steel tubing for said frame
531 is for bicycles and should be brazed or braze welded (aka bronze welded aka copper brazed aka sif-bronzed) only
thousands of competition motorcycle frames were made this way, and that Thrust jet car

fusion welded ie steel welding rod as Lotus used causes major embrittlement of 531 through over-temperature
every designer in the UK knew this (except ACBC the civil engineer)
this is in the Crombac book, but not mentioned since ?

those were the days of 'men in sheds', only M-B allocated proper resources to the work, and they made big mistakes eg aero

IIRC the H16 BRM had the engine acting as 100% of the structure (before Lotus)

[munudeges]

The modern Adrian Newey and the man from 20 years ago are very different. He would not have been able to achieve the level of success that he did without Patrick Head.

He's not really that different at all. Maybe he's focused more on team infrastructure rather than pure car design with his time at Red Bull, but frankly Patrick Head is nothing compared to him. The decline in the team once Newey left is pretty marked and tells its own story. The Williams active suspension came about because Newey was adamant about the aerodynamic benefits it would bring and pushed Head into building it. The Renault engine became so powerful in the early 90s because of Newey's bloody minded non-compromising position on drag. He viewed it as his job to increase downforce and cornering speed and when he was asked about drag he would point at the engine people and ask "What are they doing?"

He's certainly the most innovative aerodynamic thinker there has been and part of that success is pushing other people into doing what they believe is impossible, but he sticks with it because he knows the advantages. His pursuit of exhaust driven diffusers has been a lifelong theme even when Mercedes told him ten years ago to forget about it, probably because they didn't want to face how complex it was.

I just find it a bit disingenuous when people say that others somehow 'harnessed' Newey, but then it's a story that gets put about by others when they see their toes being treaded on. It's rather like how Steve Nichols simply cannot accept that the MP4/4 was a Gordon Murray designed Brabham, certainly from an aerodynamic point of view, probably because he didn't like getting passed over when John Barnard had left.

[munudeges]

I think that is true for the Lotus 25, where he pioneered the monocoque and adjustable suspension, but I'm not so sure about 49, 72, 79 and 88?

Certainly you have to question what he brought to those cars but you only need to look at what happened after the 88 and when Chapman had died. They never got anywhere near those levels again.

[SectorOne]

Regarding Newey you could see during practice in SPA, he probably stood for 10 minutes analyzing the rear end of the Red Bull and you could see his mind just ticking away at whatever it was he was looking at.

Other teams snap some photos and send it to the aero department and be done with it.
RBR does the same but they have a guy on the spot that knows exactly what is going on.

[flmkane]

The modern Adrian Newey and the man from 20 years ago are very different. He would not have been able to achieve the level of success that he did without Patrick Head.

He's not really that different at all. Maybe he's focused more on team infrastructure rather than pure car design with his time at Red Bull, but frankly Patrick Head is nothing compared to him. The decline in the team once Newey left is pretty marked and tells its own story. The Williams active suspension came about because Newey was adamant about the aerodynamic benefits it would bring and pushed Head into building it. The Renault engine became so powerful in the early 90s because of Newey's bloody minded non-compromising position on drag. He viewed it as his job to increase downforce and cornering speed and when he was asked about drag he would point at the engine people and ask "What are they doing?"

He's certainly the most innovative aerodynamic thinker there has been and part of that success is pushing other people into doing what they believe is impossible, but he sticks with it because he knows the advantages. His pursuit of exhaust driven diffusers has been a lifelong theme even when Mercedes told him ten years ago to forget about it, probably because they didn't want to face how complex it was.

I just find it a bit disingenuous when people say that others somehow 'harnessed' Newey, but then it's a story that gets put about by others when they see their toes being treaded on. It's rather like how Steve Nichols simply cannot accept that the MP4/4 was a Gordon Murray designed Brabham, certainly from an aerodynamic point of view, probably because he didn't like getting passed over when John Barnard had left.

What are you talking about? Active suspension, driver aids and the Renault engine were part of the Williams team since before Newey joined it. Your just ignore chronology here sir.

And the decline of Williams started from 1994, when all their advanced technology was banned, leading to their cars becoming uncontrollable and dangerous, resulting in the death of the greatest driver in F1 and definitely costing them several titles.

[munudeges]

What are you talking about? Active suspension, driver aids and the Renault engine were part of the Williams team since before Newey joined it. Your just ignore chronology here sir.

You clearly don't now what you're talking about. Before Williams took active suspension on the thing basically didn't work. The Renault engines only came to prominence in the 90s from 91 onwards and were clearly head and shoulders above the others during that time. That's the chronology there.

And the decline of Williams started from 1994....

No, it did not. They were in the running for the championship the year after, won in 96 and 97. The decline happened after Newey left the team and the effect of his influence wore off.

I do wish we could keep idiots off threads like this.........

[munudeges]

......

[annomanderrake]

Please don't get abusive.

Are you honestly crediting the powerful Renault engine of the 1990s to Newey?

[flmkane]

What are you talking about? Active suspension, driver aids and the Renault engine were part of the Williams team since before Newey joined it. Your just ignore chronology here sir.

You clearly don't now what you're talking about. Before Williams took active suspension on the thing basically didn't work. The Renault engines only came to prominence in the 90s from 91 onwards and were clearly head and shoulders above the others during that time. That's the chronology there.

And the decline of Williams started from 1994....

No, it did not. They were in the running for the championship the year after, won in 96 and 97. The decline happened after Newey left the team and the effect of his influence wore off.

I do wish we could keep idiots off threads like this.........

Seriously? The Williams FW11 was the first Williams car with active suspension, which was raced in 1986. Back then Newey was in CART, not F1. By 1991 this system had been in development for many years, regularly tested and sometimes raced.

Newey was hired by Williams in 1990 and there is no way he developed race winning active suspension in the space of a few months.

And are you seriously stating that Newey engineered the Renault engines, which had been in constant development since 1989?

Furthermore, your original claim was that Patrick Head held back Newey and is nothing compared to him. All the mechanical systems had been in place for Newey to exploit before he came to Williams. You cant develop all the technology stuffed into the FW14 in mere months.

And the decline of Williams is a matter of opinion. Some say it started in 2004. Others say it was when Newey left. People with better memories will remember that they lost Renault in 1998 and that was probably worse than losing one engineer. People with even better memories will realize that Renault had already sold them out in 1995, by supplying engines to Benetton.

Perhaps I am indeed an idiot, but at least I love F1 enough to remember minor details like which year Williams first raced active suspension

[xpensive]

Williams were indeed dabbling with what they called "re-active" suspension in parallel to Lotus already in the 80s, but I don't think it was raced until 1992, when Mansell so famously claimed they were not sure about its benefits, only to win the first 5 races.

Newey was replaced by Gavin Fisher and Geoff Willis, but they never really recovered, as BMW so disappointingly found out.

I don't think they were "sold out", Renault was already supplying Ligier and Benetton bought them to get the engines as I recall.