In appreciation of Felipe Massa.

[antiuser]

I think, besides the physical blow of his 2009 accident, Massa's decline in performance after his return was compounded by the presence of Fernando Alonso at Ferrari. Alonso is a Schumacher-like figure who makes the whole team work for him, and he no doubt was the lead driver that engineers came to when the 2010 car was being developed. There's a striking difference between Massa and Alonso's driving styles in that Massa, much like Schumacher, likes cars that are more planted on the front end, with some oversteer, whereas Alonso prefers some understeer. So having a car built mostly around Alonso's style and with subsequent aero developments made to suit Alonso would certainly hamper Massa's abilities to push the car to the limit.

[Powershift]

I have heard it said that there are over 15,000 individual parts that make up a F1 car, can you imagine that each individual part is weighed and inspected and that if a part is even 1 gram lighter than it goes to the preferred driver, that alone would be 15kg of ballast moved to a performance enhancing position, not to mention stronger engines(1% stronger can be 7hp) plus the all important preferred pit strategies... life as a number 2 driver is a huge uphill battle, and a strong psychological battle as well.

Still I remember Massa as being extremely fast and dangerous as a young driver, much like Grosjean, and even earning a 1 race ban, but anyone who watched closely could see the speed.

Later on I saw him better the likes of MS a couple times a year, very interesting, and then he put a surprising whooping to Kimi, but still played team ball and let Kimi by at his home track Brazil giving up the win so Kimi could get WDC, must have been extremely difficult.

He would not have been the rightful WDC in 2008, but he put up a great fight, and was at least paid back the home win in Brazil from Kimi moving over.

But in the end playing "the good team player" ultimately put an end to his F1 career, even more so than Rubens' spring.

Hopefully we get to see Kimi and Alonso go at it full tilt, that will be so much more enjoyable than Massa's constant moving over.

[marcush.]

no question Massa was heavily affected by alonsos presence in the team -and it was very clear from the start that alonso was No1+driver -with the Santander backing .
Very admireable to see how Massa played teamplayer all the time without ever complaining in public even after that hockenheim happenings.
Wind back a few years and compare to :Barrichello ,Webber,Coulthard and many others who really failed to conduct themselves in times when lifting the throttle was a matter of team spirit..
The one exception here is Kimi Raikkonen who -under the right cicumstances eg a teammate he respects(Massa) had no issues to move over gracefully.I Don´t expect him to do the same with Alonso

[antiuser]

Hopefully we get to see Kimi and Alonso go at it full tilt

I can already see it...

Team: "Kimi, Fernando is faster than you."
Kimi: "Leave me alone, I know what I'm doing!"

[Stradivarius]

I have heard it said that there are over 15,000 individual parts that make up a F1 car, can you imagine that each individual part is weighed and inspected and that if a part is even 1 gram lighter than it goes to the preferred driver, that alone would be 15kg of ballast moved to a performance enhancing position, not to mention stronger engines(1% stronger can be 7hp) plus the all important preferred pit strategies... life as a number 2 driver is a huge uphill battle, and a strong psychological battle as well.

If you take an f1 car apart into 15 000 parts, each part will on average weigh something like 42 grams. However, this is including all the ballast, and there is a minimum weight on the engine, so in reality, each part will on average have a weight considerably smaller than 40 grams. Then 1 gram is suddenly a very large proportion. I don't know how much ballast they use in today's cars, but I have heard numbers close to 100 kg before. In addition, the engine must weigh a minimum of 95 kg. So if we subtract this, let's say we are left with 450 kg. Then 15 kg is 3.33% and I strongly doubt that the machining tolerances and material deviation is anywhere near that in terms of weight.

He would not have been the rightful WDC in 2008, but he put up a great fight, and was at least paid back the home win in Brazil from Kimi moving over.

This is very hard for me to understand. Why wouldn't Massa be a worthy champion in 2008 (except for the single point he was missing)? I can't think of anyone more worthy. Massa made a mistake in Malaysia, but apart from that he was very consistent and stable and did take the most victories that year. Hamilton, on the other hand, who ended up with the title, had been making mistakes and wasting points all season, including the final race, when Vettel passed him on track when his championship was threatened. Hamilton didn't suffer any car- or team problems, while Massa lost two race victories in Hungary and in Singapore because of the car and the team. I have always felt that both championships went the wrong way that year. Ferrari made many silly mistakes, including the Singapore pit stop blunder, but won the constructur's title. Hamilton made several mistakes as well, including running into Raikkonen in the pitlane in Canada, but won the driver's title. Massa and McLaren were almost flawless and deserved the titles more in my opinion.

But in the end playing "the good team player" ultimately put an end to his F1 career, even more so than Rubens' spring.

Hopefully we get to see Kimi and Alonso go at it full tilt, that will be so much more enjoyable than Massa's constant moving over.

Rubens wasn't really a team player in my opinion. He had to be forced to do the right thing by his team and then he clearly showed his dissatisfaction, even though his historic results left no doubt that he wasn't the team's title candidate. When Massa had to give Alonso the victory in Germany in 2010, it was the 5th time in 11 races that he was about to beat Alonso. That is excluding the chinese grand prix, where Massa was ahead in the pitlane entry, when Alonso overtook him off-track. Even if one considers that a legitimate move, it is clear that Massa og and Alonso were quite evenly matched until this team order and there was no constant moving over from Massa befor this. Later there has been a lot of moving over and that is not something I will expect from Kimi, unless in a situation at the end of the season when the championship is even.

[ChrisF1]

Just ignoring things like Massa inheriting the Spa win after Hamilton received a ridiculous penalty then?

(This came the race after Massa should have been given a penalty for unsafe release in the pits)

I think if the 2008 title had gone either way then it would have been deserved, but Massa benefitted more from Kimi's help than Lewis did from Heikki.

[LionKing]

....However, this is including all the ballast, and there is a minimum weight on the engine, so in reality, each part will on average have a weight considerably smaller than 40 grams. Then 1 gram is suddenly a very large proportion. I don't know how much ballast they use in today's cars, but I have heard numbers close to 100 kg before. In addition, the engine must weigh a minimum of 95 kg. So if we subtract this, let's say we are left with 450 kg. Then 15 kg is 3.33% and I strongly doubt that the machining tolerances and material deviation is anywhere near that in terms of weight.

There is also the weight of 4 tires.

[marcush.]

maybe the knock on massas confidence came only in the winter following 2010 loss of championship for alonso ..Maybe Alonso put on pressure to Ferrari counting out the beans he had lost in the races up to hockenheim as Massa was not prepared and ordered to give way?
A clever guy alonso coul easily countup those races when Massa came home in front of him and voila he would have had bagged that title....And i´m pretty sure that´s what he promised to the team-give me full support and i will grab that crown...unfortunatelly it demotivated Massa at the same time to be told in advance to wave the other red car by instantly and effectively throwing away any hope to win a title as long as alonso is in that team...
I look forward to see the old Massa again in the races left this year... it will be a closely matched race as it was in 2010 met hinks...

[Stradivarius]

Just ignoring things like Massa inheriting the Spa win after Hamilton received a ridiculous penalty then?

(This came the race after Massa should have been given a penalty for unsafe release in the pits)

Massa inheriting the Spa win after Hamilton received a penalty, earned him 2 points, while Hamilton lost 4 points. When Massa's engine blew up in Hungary, he lost 10 points, while Hamilton gained 1 point. In Singapore Massa lost another 2 points, while Hamilton gained another point.

I am not saying that I agree that Hamilton didn't deserve the penalty at Spa, but anyway the impact wasn't too big. When you say that Massa should have gotten a penalty in Valencia, you are just underlining my point. Massa made very few mistakes, while his team made a lot of them. Even if the unsafe release in Valencia was worth a penalty, it's a team error and not a driver error. When Hamilton drove outside of the track at Spa, he gave Kimi back the place, but he put himself in an excellent position for overtaking him directly after. On the previous lap he tried to overtake, but couldn't do it simply because he couldn't put himself in that advantageous position. Then I think it is fair that he gets the penalty when he reaches that position by cutting the chicane, regardless of the slight lift-off to let Kimi through. Anyway, alle the problems that Hamilton ran into in 2008 was caused by himself, not by his team.

Well, I just realized that I forgot the collision with Massa in Japan. That was Massa's fault and he was penalized for it, but Hamilton lost more time having to wait for everyone to pass before he could turn around and continue.

I think if the 2008 title had gone either way then it would have been deserved, but Massa benefitted more from Kimi's help than Lewis did from Heikki.

I agree that both could have deserved the title, I was just responding to Powershift's claim that Massa wouldn't have been the rightful champion. By the way, the teammates from Finland made little difference either way. If we ignore the fight for victory between Kimi and Massa in Malaysia, where Massa ran off the track and lost 8 points, Kimi only took 3 points away from Massa and 5 points away from Hamilton, so Massa gained a net 2 points. Kovalainen took 1 point away from Massa and 3 points away from Hamilton, so there Massa gained another 2 points. But these 4 points and the 6 points from Spa don't out-weigh the 22 points Massa lost in Hungary and Singapore. And you could also say that because Hamilton wasn't threatened by his team mate, he took easy victories in the races where McLaren had the quickest car. In Malaysia, where Ferrari had the quickest car, Massa had to fight his team mate this time he cracked under the pressure and went off the track. Had his team mate been a weaker driver, Massa would have taken an easy 10 points in Malaysia, as Hamilton did in Australia.

[antiuser]

If one looks at the stats, you can see that Massa was, until Alonso came along, at least quite competitive if not better than his teammates.

Felipe Massa vs. Michael Schumacher (2006)
Races: 18
Wins: 2 / 7
Qualifying: 5 / 13
Race results: 5 / 12 (both retired at Australia)
Poles: 3 / 4
Fastest laps: 2 / 7
Podiums: 7 / 12
Points: 80 / 121

Massa vs. Räikkönen (2007-09 only counting up to Germany)
Races: 44
Wins: 9 / 8
Qualifying: 25 / 19
Race results: 23 / 21 (both retired at Australia)
Poles: 12 / 5
Fastest laps: 10 / 16
Podiums: 21 / 22
Points: 213 / 195

Massa vs. Alonso (2010-13 counting up to Italy)
Races: 70
Wins: 0 / 11
Qualifying: 15 / 55
Race results: 11 / 59
Poles: 0 / 4
Fastest laps: 2 / 7
Podiums: 8 / 40
Points: 463 / 956

[Stradivarius]

If one looks at the stats, you can see that Massa was, until Alonso came along, at least quite competitive if not better than his teammates.

Felipe Massa vs. Michael Schumacher (2006)
Races: 18
Wins: 2 / 7
Qualifying: 5 / 13
Race results: 5 / 12 (both retired at Australia)
Poles: 3 / 4
Fastest laps: 2 / 7
Podiums: 7 / 12
Points: 80 / 121

I don't mean to be negative, but Massa was nowhere near Schumacher in 2006. His results look better because the competition behind Ferrari and Renault was much weaker than the competition has been during the past years. Ferrari even adapted their strategies in 2006 to help Massa beat Alonso, because 2 points per race wasn't enough for them after falling behind in the beginning of the seson.

Some time ago I looked into the qualifying times of Alonso and Massa in 2012. The both drove all the Q2 sessions and Alonso was on average 0.336 s faster than Massa in Q2. In Q3 there was only 9 sessions where they both drove, and then Alonso was on average 0.193 s faster than Massa.

If we look at the Q2 times from 2006, we need to exclude Malaysia and Monaco, because Massa didn't make it to Q2 there. Then we are left with 15 tracks, and Massa was quicker than Schumacher only twice. First in Bahrain by 0.011 s and then at Monza by 0.128 s. If we add the gaps together for all 15 Q2 sessions, we get 8.327 s. If we divide that by 15, we get an average gap in Q2 of 0.555 s. If we look at Q3 times, it gets more complicated because in 2006 the drivers were qualifying with different fuel loads in Q3. In many races we didn't see what fuel loads the drivers had been running, so if we only look at the races where both drivers made their scheduled first stops, and also had made it to Q3, there is only 10 races left. In those 10 races, Schumacher qualified an average of 0.416 s faster than Massa, and he carried an average of 0.6 laps worth of fuel more. I guess those numbers show more or less the same difference as the Q2 numbers.

So at least in qualifying, Massa was more competitive in 2012 than he was in 2006, when comparing to his team mate. I know that qualifying isn't everything, but at least it gives some indication of the speed. Alonso is known to be better in the races than in the qualifying, but so was Schumacher. They both have more race wins than pole positions.

[antiuser]

I don't mean to be negative, but Massa was nowhere near Schumacher in 2006. His results look better because the competition behind Ferrari and Renault was much weaker than the competition has been during the past years. Ferrari even adapted their strategies in 2006 to help Massa beat Alonso, because 2 points per race wasn't enough for them after falling behind in the beginning of the seson.

I don't think anyone would dispute that in terms of sheer performance, Massa was behind. Schumacher had 10 years of Ferrari behind him and 5 WDCs with the team, while Massa was a just test driver who showed promise at Sauber. The point is, he did a good job and performed well within, if not exceeding, what was expected of him in his first year at Ferrari. And then when he became the tenured Ferrari driver as Schumacher exited and Kimi joined, he showed that he could compete on the same level. I'm not saying Massa is a better driver than Schumacher or Alonso, but I do believe he's marginally better than Hulkenberg and miles ahead of Maldonado. Whether a new team will give him the confidence he had pre-accident and pre-Alonso, only time will tell. But I think he deserves another crack at it.