wow! how the tides have changed

[bhall]

What you're implying would make much more sense had it happened last year when Ferrari needed all the help they could get just to be competitive. As it stands now, mass damper or no mass damper, the Ferrari is better than the Renault.

[Tp]

I'm not talkingh about different compounds but about construction of tyre to suit Ferrari's suspension!

As for develpoment... plase tell me what has Ferrari developed between Canadian GP and US GP?

Yes having a tyre tailored for the Ferrari does give them an advantage. But then again most of the top teams are on Michelins, so when it comes to testing - guess who has the advantage?

By the way Ferrari tweaked the aerodynamics of the rear of the Ferrari (such as the diffuser) between the Canadian GP and the US GP.

Perhaps the tide has changed only because Renault removed mass damper?

Alonso himself even said with the mass dampers they still wasn't going to be as competitive as Ferrari.

[RacingManiac]

That article says that they didn't even bring it in Hockenheim so if that is correct they've must ahve known what even FIA stewards didn't know before they got a phonecall from Mosley!

wow that was a new personal high for you.....

FIA Steward declared the damper legal at Hockenheim despite the fact that FIA Rulemaker declare it illegal. Ferrari knew the latter as everyone else did and thus did not bring it, how simple is that?

The compound Renault ran was their choice, after a productive Jerez test where THEY tested the tire and THEY chose it because THEY found it gave them better results in testing at Jerez, where they think the condition interms of temperature and surface was similar to Hockenheim. Michelin rushed to make that compound FOR Renault, who apparently was the only team to choose that because I assume only they found a use for it. That sounds pretty tailored to Renault to me, even if it didn't work out.

Even if the tire is ALL that helps Ferrari do well(and it is not), who is doing the development? In F1 tire development is not done in a lab with a tire tester, it is done on track. Ferrari, like Renualt and everybody else, tests them and give Bridgestone the pointer they needed to produce a tire they need. In constitude as much as tire development as vehicle development, as it is part of the car(this is unlike most series where tire compound is homogenous, F1 it is constantly changing).

The real turning point was not USGP, as Michelin really didn't have a chance going in since you KNOW they will go conservative after 2005. So Bridgestone was going to do better for sure. But French GP, where a track that has always been Michelin's track and you know they will be pushing for their home win, Bridgestone beat them, that to me was the turning point of the season.

Michelin could be lagging interest and effort in development now, remember Goodyear and their 1998 effort and Michelin could fall into the same boat....

[manchild]

FIA Steward declared the damper legal at Hockenheim despite the fact that FIA Rulemaker declare it illegal. Ferrari knew the latter as everyone else did and thus did not bring it, how simple is that?

Sorry my English is not perfect and I'm trying to understand this correctly... I say that it is fishy that FIA stewards have no idea that something declared illegal, people from Renault also without a slightest idea but Ferrari not bringing their mass damper to Hockenheim because of what?

If they were using it in France don't tell me that they didn't bring it to Germany because they found it obsolete. If Renault wanted to use it than I'm sure it has significant effect so Ferrari would use it to “IF”. If info in that article is correct than people in Ferrari were 100% certain that FIA will overrule scrutineering of their own stewards.

………

BTW, I don't get how could FIA threat to strip of points retroactively if that trial ends as Max planned and striping off based illegality of system that was won WDC and WCC in 2005 and was used for 2/3 of 2006 season??Would they perhaps strip Renault of both titles retroactively too?

It was basically like this… “if Renault wins in Germany it we’ll overrule decision of stewards if Ferrari wins we won’t”. Ferrari simply couldn’t loose. In any way they had 1-2 guaranteed when it matters FIA.

I’m not saying that it is legal or not but we are talking about FIA's concern for safety and here we have an example that after almost a year, same people who found that system legal all this time now find it illegal without any changes in technical regulations that would require its banning. When it matters politics and money FIA acts ASAP but when it matters safety it took them almost a year to figure out that mass damper is movable ballast and that it is as such – illegal. Gimmie a break!

I know that Renault’s performance wasn’t bad so because of absence of mass damper but overall politics and inability to set-up their car as planned because of FIA’s threat certainly had negative effect on their performance. They prepared certain tactics based on fact that mass damper was legal since September 2005 and than in the middle of preparations for practice sessions after FIA officials in charge of scrutineering checked Renault cars and said that mass damper is legal mad Max phones Charlie to tell him that there’s a big fat envelope with prancing horse on the stamp waiting for him if he says that mass damper is illegal all of the sudden.

Charlie was there as long as teams and FIA scrutineering officials so HOW COME they weren’t informed that mass damper is illegal??? FIA has no communication with its own officials? No no email, no phone, no sms, no telegrams? Tell me how please because I can’t understand that. How come only Charlie can be reached and whole team of stewards can’t?

If anyone was to be punished in case Renault used mass damper than it was FIA’s stewards if they knew that mass damper is illegal because Renault passed all official checkups and was found legal. Everything apart from that is politics not having anything to do with official procedures. Does anyone here honestly believes that FIA stewards knew that mass damper is illegal but accidentally overlooked that or ignored official instructions from their headquarters?

I know some will find this "a load of crap" so skip that and try to explain as I did using logic.

[bhall]

Looks like Renault could get the dampers back (as well as any other team running them).

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns17232.html

The FIA has said it will ask the International Court of Appeal not to take away points from any team that runs the dampers until the hearing to decide if they are ultimately legal or not. And that makes sense to me.

[manchild]

If FIA threatened to strip-off points can teams who were prevented to use it ask for compensation of losses because of unjustified FIA threat? Anyway, story in that link posted by bhallg2k only confirms what I said - Ferrari won so mass damper will not be found illegal after all but FIA's threat got the job done and Ferrari and Schuey are now closer to Renault and Alonso.

[RacingManiac]

pardon me if I got the sequence of the events wrong.

Ferrari wins France -> FIA issues statement to the teams about the mass damper being an active aero device(meh, weak reason really, but whatever) -> Testing at Jerez -> German Weekend starts -> FIA track steward declard damper being legal(FIA say they will appeal such decision) -> Renault not running the damper for fear of penalty -> Ferrari wins Germany -> FIA say there will be no penalty between now and the actual appeal hearing if teams run the device.

If that sequence of event is correct, teams already know before German weekend about the legality of the damper. Renault chose to bring theirs, as to chance of the possibility of it being clarified(which it is now) and legally allow to run the damper before the actual declaration of legality from higher authority. While Ferrari, whose version was said to be not perfected, chose not to bother with the device. Again, if the sequence of events is correct, then there is no real point for a conspiracy is there?

[bhall]

I don't see a conspiracy at all. It's just a convenient excuse for a completely mishandled situation by the FIA.

Don't let the mass damper situation cloud things. The bottom line is that the 248F1/Bridgestone combination now beats the R26/Michelin with or without a mass damper. Renault had the advantage for the first three races of the season. Ferrari found their stride at Imola, and the two teams were pretty evenly matched until the USGP. Ferrari dominated there and in France when mass dampers weren't an issue at all.

As far as I see it, Alonso might've finished 3rd instead of 5th in Germany had he had his precious mass damper. He would not have contended for the win, and the WDC/WCC picture would've still changed.

[Scuderia_Russ]

When Flavio choose to publicly humiliate Michelin by displaying the blistered tires to the world, it was an open challenge for them to improve.

What sort of logic is that?! Surely they should be doing everything in their power to produce the best product 100% of the time.
"Hey, Flav has put some of our tyres out the back of his garage and they look a bit shabby... we'd better pull our fingers out" (???)

[manchild]

How do you explain that two weeks have passed between French GP and German GP and that FIA stewards haven't been officialy informed that FIA considers mass damper to be illegal? If McDonalds was to ban some milkshake all of their restaurants would be informed in 24hrs but FIA needs more than two weeks to inform few people in same timezone

[RacingManiac]

Stewards inspect the car based on their interpretation of the rule, and they can be expected to carry some subjective opinion to what the rule is trying to say. FIA rule book maker don't do the inspection themselves. And this is where the whole "mass damper as active aero thingy" a stretch as clearly the stewards who actually determines the legality of the car, does not see it as illegal.(certainly makes you think twice about how FIA is bias towards the red no? The system exists a way of balancing the power that be and the people who actually does the judgement). The fact that the governing body need to appeal stewards' decision means there is a layer of independent, "I'll buy it when I see it" safeguard in the system.

[manchild]

FIA won't punish teams that will run mass damper in Hungary

Firstly, we received notification on Monday that the FIA will recommend to the Court of Appeal that teams who have used the mass damper in Hungary should not have retrospective penalties applied when the hearing takes place between before Turkey. In light of this, we will use the device again in Hungary.

http://www.f1technical.net/news/3620

[Hudsonhawk.]

Its all about the car......!!! This is the tragedy of modern F'ed racing......

Some will now suggest a FIA conspiracy to bring excitment back into the sport.....

Alonso will now become a genius again.....and Shoemaker will slump in form.....time for the Alonso revival JUST LIKE I PREDICTED 2 WEEKS AGO......

[zac510]

Its all about the car......!!! This is the tragedy of modern F'ed racing......

It always has been about the car. Nothing has changed there.

[mcdenife]

Manchild wrote:

How do you explain that two weeks have passed between French GP and German GP and that FIA stewards haven't been officialy informed that FIA considers mass damper to be illegal? If McDonalds was to ban some milkshake all of their restaurants would be informed in 24hrs but FIA needs more than two weeks to inform few people in same timezone Rolling Eyes

While I find the timing of the ban suspicious, I think manchild is seeing shadows where none exists.
The damper illegallity was anounced during the last jerez test. For Manchild's, argument to hold, Ferrari would have had to know that Renault was going to seek clarification (or challenge) the ruling at Hockenhiem where after presenting their case, the stewards ruled it legal. That is not to say the stewards had not been officially informed. It simply means they disagreed with the grounds of the FIA's rulling (ie indirectly an aero device).
I think it was done deliberately by the FIA/FOM not necessarilly to benefit Ferrari (though they benefit more that any other team) but to close the gap and ensure the championship goes down to the wire (more interest....more money).