Does F1 require FIA control to live?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Does F1 require FIA control to live?

Post

If you read todays press conference you will find that the teams present all said that the 2009 season will hold a huge engineering challenge. Williams specifically said that their sponsors demand big steps in KERS and carbon dioxide reduction and that they are very excited about KERS. The fact that you cannot see it has never affected the public in a great way. they will explain the different concepts and it will be interesting to see the competition in that field. honestly I'm more excited at the prospect that they will perhaps advance energy saving technologies which could make my car go with less petrol in some years than producing engines with excessive power that will only be wasted for performance gains that are not really needed. is anyone of the the opinion that F1 badly needs more performance. It seems ok to me as it is.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Scotracer
Scotracer
3
Joined: 22 Apr 2008, 17:09
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Re: Does F1 require FIA control to live?

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:If you read todays press conference you will find that the teams present all said that the 2009 season will hold a huge engineering challenge. Williams specifically said that their sponsors demand big steps in KERS and carbon dioxide reduction and that they are very excited about KERS. The fact that you cannot see it has never affected the public in a great way. they will explain the different concepts and it will be interesting to see the competition in that field. honestly I'm more excited at the prospect that they will perhaps advance energy saving technologies which could make my car go with less petrol in some years than producing engines with excessive power that will only be wasted for performance gains that are not really needed. is anyone of the the opinion that F1 badly needs more performance. It seems ok to me as it is.
I just have a sour taste and impression of F1 now. F1 used to be the ultimate, used to always be pushing the boundaries (well, in my lifetime anyway...maybe I'm just too young :D) and when the FIA mandated the V8s I was actually hurt by it. Even if the cars still produce masses of power and have incredible performance I still percieve them as slow compared to the V10s, even if they are only around a second a lap slower than the 2004 monsters. And this wouldn't have been so bad if they still allowed evolution of the engines but the freeze just made things worse. It's just the idea of the teams bringing updated cars through development of either testing or because of a new season, and the realisation that they are either still a lot slower than the cars of just a few years ago (even if the difference isn't possible to see on TV or in the flesh) or only marginally faster than the cars from the year before.

This is probably just a fanatic's rant but F1 should always be the top and with all these recent regulation changes (that have done NOTHING to improve the sport), F1 is now not a light-year ahead of the other formula cars and other open-wheel racers from around the world. KERS is an area where F1 can stand tall and be the innovator but I just don't feel it is enough. I miss the V10s so much :( Those 10km/h that are lost at the end of the straight seem so much more to me.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Does F1 require FIA control to live?

Post

well its a tough life! :wink:

I miss some of the old formulae as well but curbing performance has been an issue for 100 years in GP racing. we would be racing 50 L engines with 20.000 rpm if there were no performance curbs and no human being could drive those things. the engine capacity has gone from 3.5 to 3.0 to 2.4 and surely with turbos it will take a significant step down again and loose some revs. remember when they got 1000 KW in qualifying from 1.5 L turbo engines for 50 km of the engine life?. Impressive but basically useless waste of resources.

F1 should have a fixed ICE power and unlimited power through regeneration after a very short phase of transition in my view. engine development should be entirely directed towards fuel saving. so teams with lower fuel consumption have a weight advantage and only higher regen would give them a power advantage.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Scotracer
Scotracer
3
Joined: 22 Apr 2008, 17:09
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Re: Does F1 require FIA control to live?

Post

See, the thing is after the cuts from Turbo to 3.5 and to 3.0 have all had progression and evolution allowed. The cars always crept back up and overtook the cars they replaced but we're in the 3rd year of the V8s and still slower than the first! I have nothing against changing regulations if they can be justified but what seems to be happening lately makes next to no sense and I want either some good reasoning or further change. An example of this would by why did the FIA, in trying to cut costs, change the regulations so that manufacturers had to then design an entirely new engine (from the V10 to V8) and THEN limiting it after just one year instead of just putting a rev limit of say 18,000 on the V10s? The engines would be bullet proof at those revs and it would save the teams money (and for the fans, the cars wouldn't look or sound any different). That to me would have made more sense but of course I have the benefit of hindsight.

I am just speculating as we haven't really had much information about what 2009 will bring (hell, we don't even know the regulations yet). This rant of mine could prove futile but nonetheless, I had to get my anger towards the FIA out.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Does F1 require FIA control to live?

Post

with the benefit of hindsight the V8 made no sense. I agree. but that is what hindsight does for you. the only sensible thing is to plan forward, have a good consultation process and avoid the decision making problems of the past. I see a pretty good chance we will get that now unless they change the rules mechanism again.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Does F1 require FIA control to live?

Post

Mosley has done nothing for the sport and everything for FOM. He actually took the money from FIA and gave it to FOM, which means FIA is an empty shell that anyone can preside. He finished his "presidency" goals once he finished the deal with Formula One Management.

Since then FIA has the air of the OAS or the European parliament: an place for privileged, well connected, despicable people to spend a few years earning three times what they would earn at home, without a single success and many irritating issues half resolved. Lazy people.

Has anyone of you, when in love with a woman and with your work, had time to spend with prostitutes? This is a clear sign of too much time in your hands and little enthusiasm for your work, and that's much more worrying than any nazi or SM implications. I won't work with a guy like Mosley, not because of moral standards, but because I demand efficiency of my work partners and a guy devoted to buy sex in intrincate ways it's not precisely efficient (nor attractive, nor healthy, nor sincere, having a wife as he has, btw).

As for the question, I think the answer is the reverse of it: FIA, to live, needs to get rid of F1, which gives no money to it and consumes most of its resources. Once FIA gets a Superman able to do that, it could start a new series, without ICE as we know them.

ICE, V8, V10 or whatever, is a thing of the past, or so I think it is, at 200 dollars a barrel of oil. It would be cheaper to feed cars with diamonds or printer ink than with oil at 10 times its historical price. Only in May oil surged 20 dollars. At this cost anything goes, from solar power to cold fusion. Only inertia keeps the status quo, but it won't last for long, I think.

FIA has been unable to awaken to this new world, even when a few people (ehem, me included) has been telling the story we're living today for four or five years now.

This means that the next election is irrelevant, after all. The possible alternatives to FIA mandate, I mean besides Mosley and his plans for keeping the banks and manufacturers happy, are as inane as public TV: they represent total lack of imagination and originality, they are based on greed and on the idea that the public is stupid. After all, they are OLD people who know nothing better than what they've lived all their long, Internet-less lives.

Oh, heavens, how easy would it be to create a new organization a thousand times better than FIA, based on the Internet. Just look at Obama and Hillary approaches to their campaigns: long before the people was exhausted, the few rich that thought they could finance a presidential campaign were already dried out, financially speaking.

It has never been clearer to me (or I haven't ranted with this enthusiasm for a long time ;)): it's time for a new generation at FIA. The only solution there is, to avoid the circus the sport is converting itself at an accelerated pace, is to split FIA from FOM. And that means throwing away F1, as I see it, and recreate it as it should be: the paramount of engineering. And that means no oil in the cars nor capitalist barons behind them.

Anything less than that is just make-up on the face of a really old lady, as pimped as Paris Hilton.

Oh, man, that felt goooood.
Ciro

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Does F1 require FIA control to live?

Post

Ciro Pabón wrote:...
it's time for a new generation at FIA. The only solution there is, to avoid the circus the sport is converting itself at an accelerated pace, is to split FIA from FOM. And that means throwing away F1, as I see it, and recreate it as it should be: the paramount of engineering. And that means no oil in the cars nor capitalist barons behind them.

Anything less than that is just make-up on the face of a really old lady, as pimped as Paris Hilton.

Oh, man, that felt goooood.
nice rant Ciro =D>

the engineering challenge truly lies in keeping mobility as more and more people are demanding a piece of the old way of life in the Asian growth economies.

for many years this will mean stretching the supply of fuel to ever increasing demand and only higher efficiency can do this. good old energy saving will triumpf at last over dreams of hydrogen produced by solar power or even nuclear processes like fusion.

from a political point linear taxation on fuel isn't going to do the job. Europe will probably impose high taxes on vehicles with excess consumption and all democracies will eventually do this. anything with more than 130 g/100km CO2 will be exponentially taxed and they may bring that down year on year.

so its a long way to the entertaining spectacle of the pod races of the distant future. money will still be made in the old economy and power plays will still be played by the same old ways. and there is the old experience that two people in a fight only damage themselves and will both be swept away.

F1 is worth keeping and FIA with a history of a century is worth revitalizing. Individual mobility is the dream of many and dealing with it in a democratic way and expressing the wishes of people in the political process makes sense.

If I blow the dust off my crystal ball and speculate how the world will deal with the fossile fuel pinch I always come to the old experience. have a look at nature. from nature we can learn a lot.

how did nature create the oil reservoirs that we have tapped in the past for energy and chemical feed stocks? residue of rapidly growing marine plankton was trapped in geological processes and preserved. a bionic way of solving our problem would set out to understand how that biological mechanism can be used in a new engineered way to grab solar energy, convert it into biomass and ultimately into sustainable chemical feed stock and fuel.

that vision is compatible with an efficiency drive in the way we use fuel. it necessitates investment in efficiency. the same is true for F1 and FIA. they need to become more efficient. new leaders with integrity, vision and dedication to mobility and motor sport will be able to resolve the challenges. hopefully both FIA and the commercial side of F1 will find those persons and continue into the future.

at pittpass http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=34894
there are some considerations to the rules and commercial separation. For me the litmus test of separation is the cut between money and the rule making process that has occurred in the 2008 rules of the FIA. The rules make no requirement towards a concord agreement. that should remain as it is. the commercial side has to be separated from the rules process for F1 to reinvent itself. It is absolutely crucial that FOM will not be able to buy the rules they want via teams that they control commercially.

From Pittpass
... For a hint as to the tales he could tell, one only has to look into the fine detail of Mosley's letter. "Because of its influence over the teams (which comes mainly from its ability to offer favours in and around the paddock), the CRH sees a Concorde Agreement as another way to exercise control over the sport," he writes.
Sylt asked both Ecclestone and CVC's UK managing director Nick Clarry whether they agree with Mosley's view that they offer the F1 teams "favours in and around the paddock," and, if so, just what is the nature of these "favours" which, according to Mosley exercise "influence over the teams." Perhaps ominously, neither Clarry
nor Ecclestone would tell. It left Sylt wondering whether Ecclestone and Mosley were as bad as each other.

Image

motorsport-total.com published part of the FOM letter. I hope we will soon get to see the full text.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20394.html

so far the most complete text seems to be from Grandprix.com. It is not clear if it is the complete document or something is left out. The issue is such a hot potato that GP.com practically makes no comment about it. this is very unusual but understandable considering that FOM holds power over all the jounalists working in F1.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)