Williams, the last dozen years

[Belatti]

You may not like williams, nor their management head. You may not like their decissions. But they at least deserve respect.

YEAAAHHH!!!

[pgj]

WhiteBlue,

I am not so sure that it was pure politics that saw the demise of the Prodrive project. Williams has been quite consistent with its argument that only constructors should be be permitted to compete in and score points in the WCC. When Williams entered F1 with the Brabham chassis Williams was not permitted to score WCC points or receive additional funding from WCC prize-money. WCC points won by Williams would have been awarded to Brabham.

Politics did play a part in the demise of SA and I was sorry to see them go. It was Force India that was pursuing a court case against SA and STR regarding the legality of them competing in the WCC. I am sure that you are aware that the argument surrounded whether the Concorde Agreement rule stating that teams had to build their own car had been waved for one year or until the next Concorde Agreement was put in place. It was only resolved when SA were sacrificed and allowed to go to the wall and then the ten team rule applied to WCC prize money.

I understand that a lot of emotions were at play at the time, but to make out that Williams is the epitome of evil is too harsh IMHO. Blame should have been placed at the door of those who sold an idea to Mike Richards and allowed him to spend time and money developing a business plan that was based on biased and inaccurate information.

[mcdenife]

Miguel wrote:
Also arguing about constructor points and then defending teams that don't design their chassis is hypocritical, since those teams don't have the expenditures of an engineering team (Toro Rosso) or the risk of creating an awful chassis (Super Aguri).

Plus the fact that STR are doing well just proves Williams were right to challenge the customer car issue and shows just how unfair it was for the constructors. A lot of engineering, R&D, testing went into the STR, car and none of the cost was borne by STR. If Mclaren had given/sold their car to Prodrive, they will probably be wiping the floor Red Bull, STR, Toyota, Honda and even renault this year, who knows they might even be giving BMW a run for their money and they would have done so for a fraction of the cost. Given this, a reasonable and fair budget (or engineering know-how) comparison cannot made (ie, oh look, they 've achieved so much in a very short time compared to other constructors). They get a good/short payback (ie prize money)with none of the risk or sweat of the constructors.

[gcdugas]

You may not like williams, nor their management head. You may not like their decissions. But they at least deserve respect.

I understand that a lot of emotions were at play at the time, but to make out that Williams is the epitome of evil is too harsh IMHO.

I don't think anyone has spoken shabbily of Williams. You can come to the conclusion that there has been severe management blunders and that some people may be living in the past without malice or evil intent. For me it is all very sad. I have followed F1 since the Reutemann/Regazzoni days and the Saudia airline sponsorship logo. This was way before Frank's auto accident that put him in his wheelchair. (I also remember RD having hair.) Who can forget the beautiful Cannon sponsored cars in the years of Mansell and Patrese? I think Mansell's tire explosion in Adelaide will be forever etched in the minds of F1 fans as one of the top five images of F1 history.

So it is with reluctance that I speak as candidly of their blunders as I do. It brings me no pleasure as I think Williams will forever be a major chapter in the history F1. From 1982 until 1993 only Williams or McLaren won any championships. One cannot be a fan of F1 for thirty years and not have great reverence for Williams. But one cannot also help but think of their sad mistakes also and these have mostly occurred over the last 12 years, hence the focus of this thread upon that time span. If Williams does go "the way of the dinosaur" it will be greater than the previous losses of Lotus, Alfa, Brabham, and Tyrrell combined. But if that happens they can only lay the blame at their own feet and that is lamentable indeed.

[axle]

At least Williams are trying, you know, props to them for that.

The $88m loss isn't as such a loss but an overspend as they are investing in their future. They've spent more than their income for 2 years (2005 or 2006 saw a $60m profit!) because they are trying to get the right tools/people in place to move them up the grid. They are fighting and I for one hope they make it back up the grid to challenge the marketing/racing teams from the car industry.

Williams only exist to race.

[tarzoon]

I quite like Williams. They have made history through the development of some really innovative solutions (some of them were banned even before racing). And 15 years ago one could say that any pilot can win with a Williams car.

Bad decisions happen. Schummies are the best example. One is talented, winner and with very deep knowledge of F1, and then there's the one that drove for Williams. German marketing? Well, whatever!

Not much has been made in the last 10 years, true. No real innovation, no fancy active suspension or crazy electronics gadgets. No more Adrian Newey or Geoff Willis. Still, since 1998 they have two 2nd places and three 3rd places on the constructor's championship.

And more than that, they were extremely innovative in the marketing. BMW.williams is a basic change. Finding sponsorship away from tobacco is a bigger one. Paying Ralfie is plain silly.

Time didn't play well, and I sincerely hope they do not finish as Lotus did. There is true value there and a very old-fashioned 'garagiste' spirit. If Nico stays it can only help also. They just need a better car.


Ahh! And there's no more of that Schummi!

[pgj]

I am not trying to paint Williams out to be perfect and without blame. I am still finding new friends here and I am certainly not going to fall out with anyone for expressing a genuine opinion. I do not appreciate people who cannot take constructive comment, or criticism for that matter, about their pet interest in F1. I hope that I am able to apply that to my own beliefs. I have enjoyed Williams through its formative years and into its successful years and I am still enjoying my F1 with Williams, but it is F1 that is my passion.

There is a very real possibility that Williams will go to the wall, although I hope not. Williams does seem to be moving into a new era where it is looking to generate revenue from new streams such as KERS and F2. Williams is sick at the moment, but I hope for a full and complete recovery in time.

[Conceptual]

Does anyone think that Williams Toyota might capitalize in the way that was missed in Williams BMW?

With the list of people wanting to buy an F1 team, it may be in Toyota's interest to sell their works team, and "buy in" to Williams like the McLaren Mercedes team.

Toyota have not done themselves very good in the eyes of Japanese fans, and it (sadly) may be the last opportunity for both teams to become top-tier.

Any comments about this possibility? I said the same for SA and Honda, but we see how that went, lol, and how GOOD the Honda has shown to be since then!

[WhiteBlue]

Williams took tons of money from BMW with a very proud attitude. They always said that they were a top team. I do not think that they have lived up to the hype they created. Ferrari and McMerc demonstrated what could be achieved by integration. BMW wanted to integrate engine, electronics, chassis and all drive train but Williams not.

Their main competence is the design of a race and championship winning chassis with superior aero and having that raced by competent drivers and a keen race team. Newey has shown that he can design such chassis. he did it at Williams, McLaren and Red Bull Technologies. Since he left Williams is out of the top league in my view. they have been living from past glory.

there is not much probability that Williams will ever get back to the top unless Pat Head goes home and Sir Frank finds himself a new engineering leader. Pat has spend the last years in permanent warfare with the guys who are supposed to do the job. Initially he tangled with Theissen. As soon as that was history he started to micro manage Sam Michaels and Frank Dernie. I believe that Williams will not be able to attract top engineering talent until Head is gone for good. Nobody with some self esteem wants to work for him.

The issue of the customer cars is directly related to the Williams situation. I do not think that they will have the resources to compete in HERS and KERS. That is going to become the main battle ground in the next decade when ways will be found to prevent teams from spending the bulk of the money on aero. aero design and engine development for power will be blocked by the rules, however they are going to do it. the teams that come up with the best solution to package the HERS and KERS for weight distribution, traction and drag and push hardest on efficiency will go to the top. I don't think that will be Williams.

In the end the billionaire teams and the privateer constructors will buy the drive train from a car manufacturer. That will include pretty much everything except the tub. soon we will have front wheel KERS and the electrics will be all over the car. you will not be able to do that without integrated concepts. in this world it is pretty irrelevant if you still design your own tub. it will be more important to achieve good system integration which may come by taking a package and show greater skill in race engineering and team management as Toro Rosso did.

to be a contructor in the disciplines that will matter is not very likely for Williams. they have sunk too far to maintain their successes in getting sponsorship. it will be interesting to see if they will continue to have 44 mil $ deficits in the years to come. I suspect that will be unsustainable. sooner or later the equity will be gone and new debt will be unavailable. they will be in a similar position as Toro Rosso and might be snapped up by someone with deep pockets.

[tarzoon]

Any comments about this possibility? I said the same for SA and Honda, but we see how that went, lol, and how GOOD the Honda has shown to be since then!

Honda.Williams F1 team?? Williams is quite well with facilities. Their wind tunnel is quite new and their crazy race simulator very efficient.

Honda engine with KERS (they should have a good knowledge on that from hybrid cars), Ross Brawn in charge, Rory Byrne back from his retirement, Prodrive once again with Honda?

[wilson]

In 2003, if Ferrari haven't reported Michelin of making illegal tyres. Williams would have won the Constructors Championship. Not to mention, Williams lost $88 million in total in 2006 & 2007 season.

[pgj]

I do believe that Patrick lost his focus. He has admitted that he is no longer able to put in 100+ hrs per week. That element of the job he is not sorry to lose. I do not know what kind of a person Patrick is to work with. I would have expected that there would be plenty of people who would want to work with him based on his previous achievements, but that is just my impression and it is unsubstantiated. Comments coming out of Grove have indicated that the KERS project has been taken on by Patrick and it has given him his appetite back for R&D. If he is difficult to work with and has been retarding Sam, this might just be the opportunity for Sam to show what he can do.

Toyota Japan has been stacking up their own people into Toyota F1. If Toyota was to switch to Williams, there would have be some big changes in the management structure as Toyota is committed to building an F1 team along "Toyota Way" lines. The final decision about Toyota's involvement in F1 will eventually come from their shareholders and stakeholders.

[tarzoon]

Toyota Japan has been stacking up their own people into Toyota F1. If Toyota was to switch to Williams, there would have be some big changes in the management structure as Toyota is committed to building an F1 team along "Toyota Way" lines. The final decision about Toyota's involvement in F1 will eventually come from their shareholders and stakeholders.

Bear in mind that there are potential gains from moving from Cologne to England, i.e. chats, coffees, beers, pub talks and small slips about latest developments. Something like brainstorming everywhere!

[pgj]

You cynic! LOL

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, I don't see it as cynicism. It's true: british socialize at pubs, they don't dance.

So, you end talking about your work and bitching about your boss with a lot of guys around a beer (puaj, I hate beer, but I love people, so I had to swallow that froathy thing they call a drink). Not very latino, but, hey, I can understand the bussiness advantages in that. German pubs are for you to get drunk, british pubs are for you to be "groovy", and that's why the Flanders of the world don't fit in.

All the talking about BMW doing well, well... we know they milked Williams out of their technology, because they really knew about engines, but knew zilch about racing F1. For them (and it was noticeable from the very beginning), Williams was just a step they had to take, and they weren't happy about it. Besides, after that, after the clear sociopathy of Mr. Thiessen took them out of the deal, what did they do? Buy Sauber, that's what they did. They would buy Ferrari if they could, but that wouldn't make Thiessen a racer, not in a million years.

Williams is a personal show, or so I think. They're like Ferrari, the work of one man. That's what makes them a great team. And a great team is not necesarily a winning team: is a team that goes beyond its limits. That's why Toyota or BMW are not (will never be) great teams, while Minardi or Brabham were things fans cherish.

Simple: you don't get them at every corner, they're like the kind of girls we all love or your own children. There is no corporation that can "develop" them, there is no robotic-mindless-work-for-a-pay, Toyota style, that will give them to you.

Corporations have no limits: who cares about 100+ hours of work in a corporation? They simply throw more money into it. How much money is BMW making? Who cares about their losses? They have no significance, they don't deprive the team of anything, they don't have to fight for the pennies (altough I can imagine, while I write this, the incensed answer of some members that I might receive, ehem).

And no matter how much money you put into smart, cool ads about it, people (at least some people) cannot be cheated so easily out of the fact that they watch racing waiting for the improbable to happen. Who cares about Schumi winning for the 100th time? That's not what novels nor adventure tales are made of, and let me tell you: people (at least some people, I say again) need them, they're not getting it right now in racing..

BMW vs Williams is not a british-german divide thing for me. For example, Porsche, yes, they would make a great team: they would have to rely on inventiveness and extra hard work, they have to love what they do, they would bet their pants at every race, if they ever get involved. Every victory of a team of this kind (well done Nico, btw) is a victory of the heart.

Cynicism doesn't take you far with these kind of enterprises, nor smart jokes about the predicaments of others, nor familiarity with true geniuses. I bet most of the contrarian answers I will get are from people who's employed, btw.

A better team today than Williams? Which one? Don't make me laugh with truly smart answers, I know them all... Other teams can win, true, but who's winning? Thiessen? Ha! The money is the winner. It's like CocaCola winning something: nobody is the winner. Just another notch in the corporative report at the end of the year, that's what they search with their involvement in the sport, that's all they get. Poor people.