Williams, the last dozen years

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gcdugas
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Williams, the last dozen years

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This strays way off topic but the initial quote was from this thread so I addressed the matter here (as well as starting another thread). Sorry...
WhiteBlue wrote:I was sick and tired of Pat Head's attitude when Williams had the strongest engine on the grid and for no money in the world got a competitive chassis. BMW pumped a lot of cash into the team and made some progress for two years. Then it went down the drain very quickly and it was by no means Theissen's fault. The Sauber take over shows very clearly that Theissen is by far the better team manager than Head. These two were conducting a little war between themselves in the two final years and Theissen had no chance because Head was a share holder. Generally Head is vastly over rated the last twelve years. If they hadn't had Newey and Dernie they would have sunk much earlier. It's a shame for Sir Frank because he is generally doing a very nice job and is such a likeable man.
You mean earlier than 12 LONG years ago? Williams had their hey day but since then (12 yrs) they have done very little except in 2003 when I think they should have won everything but were robbed by Michelin-gate and the bogus Indy Montoya DQ.

To be fair the team should have never been hoodwinked by Willi Weber into Ralf's second contract. They should have treated Montoya better and told Ralf the whiner to piss off. This wasn't Head's fault, it was Frank's and Frank should have told Mario that Ralf was history. But BMW held a lot of cards when Ralf's contract came up and with German pressure Williams had to cave in. No doubt the strained relationship with BMW made it hard for Williams to have the rapport to tell Willi Weber where to go. A back drop of 3 Ralf victories in 2002 made it even harder (though a monkey could have won those races in that car). Also the 2002 car only finished 16 times out of 34 starts (17x2) and mostly is was the grenade in the rear that let them down so Williams' frustration with BMW was justified. For sure circumstances conspired against Williams and BMW but they still should have dumped Ralf (or halved his salary) and backed Montoya more. It was so bad that Montoya signed to race for McLaren a year and a half in advance even during a near double Championship year at Williams. This is personnel mismanagement at it highest and Williams at their lowest.

McLaren, even when they had Newey saw that the age of the star designer was over and built a team of designers. Williams is trying to do the same but Sam Michael just isn't up to it and Patrick finds it hard to delegate and release the engineers fully. But they do need to get some better aero people also. Mark Gillan was available but Toyota correctly perceived his value and snapped him up. Williams are notoriously cheap (except when they are being swindled by Willi Weber) and are too gentlemanly to poach talent from other teams. They need to spend $$$ on pirating talent and then let them do their job. They are being soundly beat by Toyota who have come to the sport well after Williams' hey day and spent much of that short time floundering tailoring the car to the same overpriced Ralf when Jarno dusted him in early 2005 (from the TF105B through to the last Ralf influenced car the TF107 Toyota were went down hill.... no I don't like Ralfie-pooh and Willi the shyster). The point being that Toyota are now beating the "pedigreed" Williams soundly in a square chassis fight.

All in all I must agree with your assessment of Patrick Head. He is living in the past. BTW, this same "living in the past" mentality is what drives Max Mosley with his "customer chassis"/cheap engines/low budget/"independent teams" fixation that has its roots in the Cosworth era. Accordingly Max has been out of step ever since the "manufacturer era" started with the first Renault turbos and that is a lot of time to spend being out of date. Ron Dennis, for all his small picture attention to detail, read the big picture tea leaves better and, after the low point of Peugeot, acquiesced to reality and became the first to embrace a manufacturer, give them an equity stake and allowed full engineering collaboration and integration. Head and Williams resisted all of this when the golden opportunity of BMW appeared at their door step. BMW wanted full engineering collaboration and integration back in 2002 but Williams chaffed as the old mentality was too hard to shake. Moreover if Williams had the wisdom to give BMW an equity stake they would have forever secured a worthy manufacturer partner. As it is they have been rightly relegated back to the customer engine status that their out-dated paradigm dictates. There are no more partners to be had and they missed their chance. They can only fade/remain in second tier status from now on.

Bad personnel management saw Mansell and Hill leave the team as sitting Champions. More bad personnel management saw Ralf get embraced and Montoya disgusted into leaving. Bad business management saw BMW leave and an opportunity for long term prosperity vanish. All this has its roots in an out-dated short-sighted cheapskate mentality. So, while I also greatly respect and like Frank, I must apportion much of this at his footsteps as well.
Last edited by gcdugas on 28 Sep 2008, 20:40, edited 1 time in total.
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woohoo
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Re: Williams, the last dozen years

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gsdugas, you have your dates and facts messed up.

Michelin gate was not in 2003 it was in indy 2005, Montoya was not DQ in indy in 2003 but 2004, and Hill did not leave, he was fired.

And also, the BMW was one of the most powerful engines in the field, but bad design and engineering left Williams in the midfield, which is why BMW left. Williams (the team) is self to blame for the mess they are in.
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gcdugas
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woohoo wrote:gsdugas, you have your dates and facts messed up.

Michelin gate was not in 2003 it was in 2005, Montoya was not DQ in indy in 2003 but 2004, and Hill did not leave, he was fired.

And also, the BMW was one of the most powerful engines in the field, but bad design and engineering left Williams in the midfield, which is why BMW left. Williams (the team) is self to blame for the mess they are in.

My dates are correct. Michelin-gate was not Indy 2005, it was pre-Monza 2003 when the FIA decided that tires which were legal since 1998 were no longer legal as they changed measuring methods at the behest of Ferrari. Yes the Monty Indy DQ was in 2003 when he and Rubens got into a tussle.

Hill was dumped to make way for Frentzen. Dumped, let go, fired... whatever. It is a shabby way to treat a reigning WDC.

The BMW engine of 2002 was the most powerful but the engine caused the vast majority of the 18 DNFs. It was not the "bad design and engineering" that you blame.

My dates and facts are correct. And it seems you agree with my conclusion about Williams being responsible for the mess they are in even though you blame "bad design and engineering" whereas I blame short-sightedness and bad personnel management.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

timbo
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gcdugas wrote:Michelin-gate was not Indy 2005, it was pre-Monza 2003 when the FIA decided that tires which were legal since 1998 were no longer legal as they changed measuring methods at the behest of Ferrari.
Following your logic FIA shouldn't have outlawed Ferrari's movable floor afer Australian GP last year.
I agree on "short sightedness and bad personnel management" but all in all it caused bad engineering, right?

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gcdugas
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timbo wrote: Following your logic FIA shouldn't have outlawed Ferrari's movable floor afer Australian GP last year.
No, it was not a matter of revising the rules mid-season, Ferrari got caught cheating plain and simple. The only reason the FIA couldn't do anything is because they found out after the fact and couldn't prove that the '07 Australian GP spec Ferrari had used the movable floor system which was always illegal. Very, very different.

I think Mac made a strategic blunder here. They should have waited until the Malaysian post race tech inspection and have the cars DQ'd like the Honda fuel tank episode earlier. Would the FIA have banned Ferrari from several races as they did to Honda? It would be hard pressed not to but the FIA logic and reasoning has a way of bending when the red cars are involved. At the very least the FIA would have been forced to DQ the cars for a manifest breach.
timbo wrote:I agree on "short sightedness and bad personnel management" but all in all it caused bad engineering, right?
Definitely yes, but with the possible exception of the 2003 car which almost won its maiden race except for an unforced error spin late in the race while leading.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

timbo
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gcdugas wrote:
timbo wrote: Following your logic FIA shouldn't have outlawed Ferrari's movable floor afer Australian GP last year.
No, it was not a matter of revising the rules mid-season, Ferrari got caught cheating plain and simple. The only reason the FIA couldn't do anything is because they found out after the fact and couldn't prove that the '07 Australian GP spec Ferrari had used the movable floor system which was always illegal. Very, very different.

I think Mac made a strategic blunder here. They should have waited until the Malaysian post race tech inspection and have the cars DQ'd like the Honda fuel tank episode earlier. Would the FIA have banned Ferrari from several races as they did to Honda? It would be hard pressed not to but the FIA logic and reasoning has a way of bending when the red cars are involved. At the very least the FIA would have been forced to DQ the cars for a manifest breach.
Huh... opinions are like a**holes - everyone has one)))
Now I call that anti-Ferrari bias. Why heaving a tyre that is wider than the regs when moving is not cheating and have a floor that does not flex under required load is cheating? And McLaren had to modify their floor-attachment too to fulfil new test procedure.
Sorry for offtopic, but I think your anti-Ferrarism is way too obvious.

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crbassassin
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timbo wrote:And McLaren had to modify their floor-attachment too to fulfil new test procedure.
where did you get that from?

timbo
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crbassassin wrote:
timbo wrote:And McLaren had to modify their floor-attachment too to fulfil new test procedure.
where did you get that from?
From world council hearing transcript from last year. Patric Lowe from McLaren confirmed it. Note that I did non imply that McLaren used moovable flor. It is just that Ferrari found a way to get positive effect from the level of flexibility that would pass the test. Same as Michlens found a loophole in that width are measured before tyres are raced.

CMSMJ1
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I was not going to bother butting in on this one..but the Michelins we judged to be legal from 2001 when the "wide" mould was introduced.

It took a superbly timed, depending if you are partisan or not, appeal to show that the tyres effective contact patch was wider than the FIA wanted\expected it to be.

The tyres were not illegal but a clarfication of the measuring criteria meant that you could no longer use them. Pretty much the same animal as the Ferrari barge boards imo in 1999.

Bridgestone historically used a narrow tyre anyways and at Monaco that year were allegedly using mixed compund front and rear tyres in practice. There was going to be an appeal...but they reverted to legal tyres for the rest of the weekend.

more on topic - the perception of Wiliams is that they still are a grandee team and not a no hoper like FI are perceived to be. This is a double edged sword as basking in past glory can lead to higher expectation and the higher you are perceived to be..the further you have to fall.

Williams are a great team, they alwasy will be. The fact tyhey got a 2nd place last week was not met with incredulity but rather a sense of..well, they should be up there..they are Williams after all.

I have been following F1 for over 20 years now and although I loved to see Senna and Mansell I never followed a team or was partisan in any way. However, in the same way I expect Italians love the Ferrari just because they are Italian...I have a soft spot for Williams as they are English and proud of it.
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Belatti
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I agree with gcdugas in many things. Let dates and facts alone:

1. Williams sucks managing personal, not only with Mansell and Hill, Frank himself once recognized that Reutemann would have win 1981 WDC if he had give him priorities when Jones had no longer WDC chances.
2. Head lives in the past and Frank, too. He could have done with Williams/BMW what Dennis did with McLaren/Mercedes.
3. They lost Button.

I predict a Williams future as black as Lotus, Tyrrell and Brabham had.
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sebbe
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I can't recall when or where but a few months ago somebody from Williams said that BMW acted like they were not interesting in merging with Williams from day 1. They joined Williams to get experience, and then went out and closed a deal with Sauber.
That makes much more sense. Germans are control freaks (I love it, I really do) and they can't share control.
Mercedes is waiting for Dennis to step down to take control of McLaren-Mercedes.
Although I think and hope they keep Withmarsh (sorry for the off-topic rambling).

The Sauber take over shows very clearly that Theissen is by far the better team manager than Head.
Actually not, that means Doctor Theissen is far better chess player than Patrick. :lol:
He let Patrick Head thought he had won when they were preparing to buy Sauber and make it a first class team, while Williams sunk in the process (by its own bad management wight).

And I agree with all of you guys that think that Head and Williams live in the past. They should step down. The same way Dennis should step down.
I'm a big fan of Ron and Frank; they made great things, but they're old farts, they are dinosaurs and can't adapt fast enough.
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timbo
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http://www.f1technical.net/news/10638?s ... 1710f5b966

ouch, this is not a very good news...

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gcdugas
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sebbe wrote:I can't recall when or where but a few months ago somebody from Williams said that BMW acted like they were not interesting in merging with Williams from day 1. They joined Williams to get experience, and then went out and closed a deal with Sauber.
During the negotiations in 2003 BMW openly wanted a minority non-controlling equity stake in Williams and greater collaboration (less secrecy) whereby they could produce a more integrated design than Frank and Patrick's out-dated "lump and chassis" mentality would permit. FW and PH balked at this as an insult to their engineering prowess. So yes, BMW did make the same offer to Williams as Mercedes held in Mac.
sebbe wrote:And I agree with all of you guys that think that Head and Williams live in the past. They should step down. The same way Dennis should step down.
I'm a big fan of Ron and Frank; they made great things, but they're old farts, they are dinosaurs and can't adapt fast enough.
I think the you are wrong about RD. He has shown himself to be ahead of the curve on all this and he has been the best there is when it comes to looking into the future. The pain of the ill-fated and ambitious MP4-18A occurred during the distractions of building their "Paragon" technical center. Short term bad, long term good.

Peter Sauber also sees well into the future. He built a bigger tunnel than he could afford to run (he was "only" running it one shift) because he knew that he must position himself to be desired by a suitor. In 2004 he refused the superior Ferrari gearbox and rear suspension that served him well in 2003 because it made him too dependent on another company. Short term bad, long term good. Silently he positioned himself for BMW after Willy blew their chance. Excellent reading of the tea leaves!
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

Miguel
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Re: Williams, the last dozen years

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From the Friday Shootout thread:
WhiteBlue wrote:
Miguel wrote:
In the last 10 years Williams hasn't contributed anything in terms of new cutting edge technology to F1. But they have politiked to protect their third rated engineering by all kind of rules and schemes.
I find this offensive, WhiteBlue.
Then you should argue the point.

Is there anything that has been introduced by Williams like active suspension almost 20 years ago?

When was their last WCC? 2. of WCC? 3. of WCC?

They helped to shoot down Prodive! Their politics were making life difficult for Super Aguri and Toro Rosso. I will gladly take the statement back and apologise if you show me the errors. I think that both those teams have shown that you can beat a works team by good management and save money in F1. If the protection of the constructors status would be rewarded by top class engineering from Williams I could understand it. I do appreciate what Toro Rosso has achieved and contributed to the racing in just a few years. Berger has done it on much smaller budgets than Williams. To win a GP from pole position without DNFs of the top teams is no small thing and was hugely entertaining.
It's very likely that Williams engineering is not the best in the world. But it's by no means third rate engineering. Saying that is indeed an insult to all the people with degrees, MSc, MEng and PhDs working at williams. It's also an insult to all the teams that have finished behind williams in the last 10 years (and that includes McLaren).

Also arguing about constructor points and then defending teams that don't design their chassis is hypocritical, since those teams don't have the expenditures of an engineering team (Toro Rosso) or the risk of creating an awful chassis (Super Aguri).

Also, Williams make the seamless gearbox run by Toyota, a much better funded team. It can true that there isn't ground-breaking technology in the FW30 compared to other cars but even then they are only 2 points away from Red Bull Racing. Is Adrian Newey a third rate engineer that hasn't brought any innovations to F1?

You may not like williams, nor their management head. You may not like their decissions. But they at least deserve respect.
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Saribro
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Re: Williams, the last dozen years

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Miguel wrote:Also, Williams make the seamless gearbox run by Toyota
Not in 2008. Toyota is running their own design.

[EDIT]viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5053&p=66529#p66529
Last edited by Saribro on 01 Oct 2008, 15:28, edited 1 time in total.