Has F1 proved the Prius is a lot of lies?

[dumbdave]

Hmm, tricky one, I dont think F1 in particular has proved the Prius specifically to be rubbish, the prius is rubbish for its own set of reasons.
F1 has raised awareness of KERS like systems and that can only be a positive and it has shown to be an advantage - listen to all the drivers complaining about trying to pass a car with "a special button" and just watch the start of the spanish GP. Like all things it has advantages and draw backs, development of the package to reduce weight and an increase in the energy it is allowed to store would increase its advantage further.
As for the Prius in particular I personally think that its rubbish, but its is as someone said a "predecessor" to a new generation of technology. My particular bug bear with it is the batteries, not only do you have the light and cheap problem, but there is disposal at end of life, chemical batteries are not nice things to throw away! (the same also goes for some of the chemicals/materials used in that panacea the hydrogen fuel cell) so maybe flybrid is the technology to go with...but without the development and demonstration of such things via the Prius and F1 the ideas dont gain credibility enough to get off the ground and then be developed!

[bjpower]

allot of interesting points. (allot of bloody angry people too, sorry for any offense caused)
i didn't think of the city usage ( I'm a country boy )
I just think the hybrid over complicates things for very little if any benefit.

I pointed out the jazz in my last comment as it has more space than the prius and more mpg, more fun beats it hands down even has a smaller engine.

saying that id never buy a jazz

everyone is going on about efficiency and fuel costs and carbon these days. my country has started taxing cars by the carbon emissions (they can emit whatever else they want but carbon you have to pay)

you want fuel efficiency teach people to drive, improve the roads etc.

I cant see how getting a fraction of your braking energy back is going to improve things compared to making the car lighter with better driving habits.

classic example i changed the wheels on my car from the heavy wheels that came with it to nice light alloys and my mpg went up about 5mpg.

but most of you have said the prius is the future its just early days..
fair point
also the f1 rules could be screwing the kers up for people.
but
they can access the lightest of materials the best people and they cannot get it right!

brawn, red bull etc have concentrated on airo etc saying more benefit will come from there rather then kers at the moment.

drivers have gone on diets to reduce there weight for the system.
F1 is perfect for kers in terms all you do is accelerate and brake.
yet any team with kers has not done well
some teams have removed them.

[xpensive]

What I tried to xplain with my xample above was that the amount of recoverable energy
is limited, when the most of it is spent to maintain the speed, not to accellerate.

- On an F1 car around a typical track, my xample suggests only some 25%.

- At 65 mph on the highway, Zero %, regardless of the car you are driving.
*Unless you have a bad stop-and-go traffic, using your breaks all the time.
**If you spend a lttle more when uphill, you just get it back when downhill.

[kilcoo316]

The prius is a load of bull.


More pollution is created/released in its manufacture than is gained back over its operating life.

[Giblet]

Citation needed.

Also use information to prove this is also not true for other cars with some data. Otherwise this is merely a sentence. Total cost of ownership data required.

How about someone compare, total cost, environmental and financial, comparing the Civic to the Civic Hybrid, or Ford Escape to Ford Escape Hybrid or something else a little apples and oranges then a Prius vs a Jazz.

The Prius is now getting a little long in the tooth, and it's fabrication methods are first generation.

There has been developments in batteries and capacitors since it's launch, such as Silicon. Developments will advance hybrids further, and eclipse petrol engines.

[gibells]

Couldn't you combine a high efficiency diesel engine into a hybrid. Shirley that should bring the best of both worlds together.

I don't see why no-one has done it, but I do bet you guys are about to tell me.

[xpensive]

One of the great things with Engineering, is that there are always more than one way to come to the same result.

Imagine the F1 engine producing an average 400 kW (544 hp)over the same 1 min 20 sec lap as above, thats 32 000 kJ.
During that lap, the 700 kg car is accellerating from 100 to 250 km/h five times, which is the same 7000 kJ as before, but now only 22% of the 32 000 spent in total.

Anyway, when gasoline holds 34 200 kJ/liter, the car would at an energy efficiency of 25%, need 3.75 liter, per lap.

If you could recover ALL of that 7000 kJ of accelleration energy, it would be equal to 0.82 liter per lap.

Equally, today's 400 kJ KERS, represents a measly 0.05 liter per lap.

[Giblet]

What percent efficiency is the KERS system?

If KERS can use more energy more efficiently, which I don't know, would KERS be more equivalent to say, 0.15l of gas?

I'm not post educated and my math is weak like girl arms.

[bjpower]

One of the great things with Engineering, is that there are always more than one way to come to the same result.

Imagine the F1 engine producing an average 400 kW (544 hp)over the same 1 min 20 sec lap as above, thats 32 000 kJ.
During that lap, the 700 kg car is accellerating from 100 to 250 km/h five times, which is the same 7000 kJ as before, but now only 22% of the 32 000 spent in total.

Anyway, when gasoline holds 34 200 kJ/liter, the car would at an energy efficiency of 25%, need 3.75 liter, per lap.

If you could recover ALL of that 7000 kJ of acceleration energy, it would be equal to 0.82 liter per lap.

Equally, today's 400 kJ KERS, represents a measly 0.05 liter per lap.

valid point but comparing like with like should it not be a 700kg car Vs a 730-750 kg car or whatever kers weighs?

but i get the idea.

the prius is getting a bit slammed but the argument seems to be that its the first generation bit like comparing the model t to a race horse.

any one know anything about the other hybrids the prius is the only one iv driven.

i dont see how the hybrid will make any difference on country roads or open ones.
it seems the city is its main strength.

even then it does not hold up to typical city cars.

I just don see it as useful to use weight and added complexity to gain a little bit of efficiency. even if it does pan out.

the electric car i could understand or the fuel cell.
but this just seems like a massive pr exercise.

[Gecko]

Previously, it was mentioned that a Prius is very inefficient on hilly terrain due to its additional weight.

That may be true of the Prius which is designed as a city car primarily, but hybrid technology is exactly the right way to go when driving on hilly terrain. Coupled with GPS and a predetermined route, it could plan out the best strategy as to when to use up all battery power (i.e. just when climbing to the top of the hill) and then recover this energy when going downhill. Even with its extra weight, a properly designed hybrid would outperform any regular car as the energy would not be lost via braking/engine braking on descent.

[Gecko]

Couldn't you combine a high efficiency diesel engine into a hybrid. Shirley that should bring the best of both worlds together.

The explanation can be found earlier in the thread. A diesel is effective for two main reasons; lower pumping losses at partial "throttle" and a more efficient cycle due to higher compressions. The engine in the Prius is both run at fully open throttle as much as possible, as well as having a special Atkinson cycle that allows a much greater effective compression ratio, negating the many advantages of the diesel. Also note that diesel/petrol comparisons are usually done in terms of volume of fuel used. If they are done in terms of carbon emissions, the comparison isn't as favourable anymore due to the greater (energy) density of diesel fuel. Couple that with the much greater particle emissions for the diesel and the choice of the engine isn't quite as clear anymore.

[bjpower]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingne ... 11244.html

new prius today.

[Jersey Tom]

i dont see how the hybrid will make any difference on country roads or open ones.
it seems the city is its main strength.

even then it does not hold up to typical city cars.

Oh? How do you figure? Which "typical" city cars (in the US at least) do 40-50mpg city, with 110-160hp? I think the new Prius is 160hp anyway.

Hybrids and electric power make plenty of sense. Even if they're only equivalent on the highway (which makes sense) but superior in urban driving... that's still a net benefit. The weight increase is negligible and not even a discussion point IMO for consumer vehicles. The only point of argument is up front cost vs cost savings. Ie you pay X dollars more up front, how many years does it take to offset that with fuel savings? This will become less and less as the technology matures and R&D costs are covered by initial sales.

As for F1, at this point KERS in racing is a joke because of how the rules are structured. I really dislike it in the 09 season. Pointless.

HOWEVER, if/when they get to a point where refueling is no longer allowed and/or the KERS storage capacity is increased... you'd be hopeless if you didn't have it. Can run less fuel onboard and run longer fuel stops.

Giving a race team X liters of fuel for a race weekend and allowing unlimited engine power and significant KERS capacity would make things very interesting.

[donskar]

Full disclosure: I am employed by Toyota

Prius has been on sale to the public for 10+ years.

They work, reliably, and at a cost within reach of most people.

Long life: several Canadian taxi cab companies have Prius with 200K+ miles, on the original batteries.

Prius gets 50+ miles per US gallon in everyday driving. On the cheapest gas you can find.

The NEW Prius is said to be A BIG step beyond the current model.

[dumbdave]

As has been mentioned though, its not just the benefits to carbon emissions during its lifetime, my personal concern with electric hybrid vehicles is that their emissions savings are outweighed by the need to dispose of the pollutants contained in the batteries at the end of life.
(In a similar way we now have 1000's of fridges & freezers piled up around the place because of the nasty CFCs etc they used to use) will we see 100s of prius battery packs awaiting safe disposal...then need to run a special disposal facility to get rid of them, and so generate more pollution in doing so than the prius ever saved in its time on the road? (ditto this for hydrogren fuel cells...i understand they have some nasty materials/chemicals involved in their construction as well!)