Mark Webber sector times - Turkey.

[Chaparral]

Either provide them, find them, or don't post

And straight back at you - your post shows you clearly didnt understand a thing I was saying. Solirossi is spot on with his analysis there are many things involved than just looking at data in a race and to call a driver (anyone) inconsistent just on that basis and basically not worthy is in my mind a cheap shot.

Yes Id like to see my countryman do well but Im not running with blinkers on and being a 'Webber cop' and thats basically what I said - I just find it strange that out of the 20 drivers on the grid that you can go to pretty much every forum on the planet and its Webber v Vettel and Webber gets a bagging why not Massa v Kimi or Hamilton v Kovi etc etc - dont you find that strange. I have seen all the races and applaud Buttons wins and talent but its also clear like in many other years with other drivers he has a superior ride this year and thats fantastic BUT I have yet to see him go toe to toe racing and probably wont as Brawn are way ahead and that is a relevant comment. You cool with that ??

[WhiteBlue]

Webber is doing a very good job clearly using his experience and level headedness. It is also clear that Vettel probably has the greater talent and certainly the bigger potential. Webber is a simillar case to Heidfeld or Button before he scored big with Brawn. A very solid driver with some great strengthes in some areas but never lucky and having things come to him.

[Conceptual]

Either provide them, find them, or STFU

And straight back at you ace - you clearly didnt understand a thing I was saying. Solirossi is spot on with his analysis there are many things involved than just looking at data in a race and to call a driver (anyone) inconsistent just on that basis and basically not worthy is in my mind a cheap shot - fair cop??

Yes Id like to see my countryman do well but Im not running with blinkers on ace and being a 'Webber cop' and thats basically what I said - I just find it strange that out of the 20 drivers on the grid that you can go to pretty much every forum on the planet and its Webber v Vettel and Webber gets a bagging why not Massa v Kimi or Hamilton v Kovi etc etc - dont you find that strange. I have seen all the races and applaud Buttons wins and talent but its also clear like in many other years with other drivers he has a superior ride this year and thats fantastic BUT I have yet to see him go toe to toe racing and probably wont as Brawn are way ahead and that is a relevant comment. You cool with that ??

As if that has anything to do at all with what he posted about the sector times.

Your post reads like the one of a politician dealing with unwanted information. First, discredit the poster on something completely unrelated, and then quote the one part of his post where he says that people may not believe him, when he was asking if anyone else had that information.

You are not in the position to pick and choose what other people talk about on this board, and sure as hell posts should not say that they cannot talk about what is on their mind.

So, yes, if your post do not add anything to this thread (like stats, timings, interviews, etc) then you and everyone else on this bourd would be better served if it says nothing.

I applaud the attempt by the original poster to objectively analyze any part of the race that he chooses, and this board is the perfect place to ask for objective facts to conclude the analysis.

The emotions displayed in your post about the "Webber vs Vettel" (which I don't believe the OP stated at all) are unnecessary, and subjective. If you don't like it, stop reading or at the very least, stop polluting posts with your post's subjective emotions.

It rather ruins what this board is all about.

[Chaparral]

And the OP is objective give me a break ace its all based on data not a mixture of whats actually happening on the track and all paralleled to the OP's FF career - sorry doesnt wash ace.

but one thing is true- he can do what is required, but not consistently. And that's not good

So thats Webbers career over based on some guy from the central coast of Australia with a FF career - fantastic I'm impressed that your post is so emotional over some guys data based comments. I dont particularly care how biased all your posts are. Im stating is facts and the facts are Webber has for the first time in 8-9 years a car that in the first part of the season (even at this late stage in his career and yes probably the autumn) is finding his feet at the pointy end and to be honest is doing a damm fine job and who knows may win a race or three - geez Im not the only one saying this so fair go - but to base his technique and driver skills on data sheets is a load of bollocks.

[Ciro Pabón]

Chap, Conceptual, concentrate in Webber.

First thought: Webber is a great driver, he has the right to be supported, as anyone in the grid.

On the other hand, who cares who is writing what? I can say I'm the UN president (some days I think I am).

On the third hand there are very simple rules about flaming and respect for other members. The great thing about forums is that they force you to get a writing style.

[WhiteBlue]

The great thing about forums is that they force you to get a writing style.

At least some do. Happy to see a level playing field develop although it must be a bitch in terms of educational work load.

What I like about Webber is his coolness compared to guys like Rubens. Rubens said he was going to win Silverstone, get pole and fastest lap. Webber said nothing of that kind but has equal chances to achieve that.

[Conceptual]

And the OP is objective give me a break ace its all based on data not a mixture of whats actually happening on the track and all paralleled to the OP's FF career - sorry doesnt wash ace.

but one thing is true- he can do what is required, but not consistently. And that's not good

So thats Webbers career over based on some guy from the central coast of Australia with a FF career - fantastic I'm impressed that your post is so emotional over some guys data based comments. I dont particularly care how biased all your posts are. Im stating is facts and the facts are Webber has for the first time in 8-9 years a car that in the first part of the season (even at this late stage in his career and yes probably the autumn) is finding his feet at the pointy end and to be honest is doing a damm fine job and who knows may win a race or three - geez Im not the only one saying this so fair go - but to base his technique and driver skills on data sheets is a load of bollocks.

How else could you possibly rate him objectively if not using data?

[SoliRossi]

I would venture a guess as to Chaps main point of conjecture is that data alone is inacurate.

Similar to my earlier post, in response to the started question of this thread, was that the original posters initial question was 'does Mark have it' so to speak, he was putting a question out there that, hey i looked at these times and Mark seemed inconsistent, do you guys think he has what it takes as i kida dont. That is a completley fair question.

On a forum semantics play a big part, and how someone writes something can be construed in a myriad of different ways. But my guess at Chaps answer to the original post was the same as mine.

Whilst some of Marks sector times may have looked inconsistent we dont know the reason why. Soo to come to a conclusion that Mark is good but does not have what it takes, in my opinion, and in response to the question posed, is that you can not tell from that piece of data. I earlier gave some possible reasons as to why.

None the less a great question and worthy of being asked but in this case i just think your conclusion from that data is inaccurate.

[paused]

Wow things do heat up quickly don't they?

For my two cents, rather than saying that MW has a problem, I think this more importantly emphasises just how good a car the Brawn is. I think it is almost remarkable that the car can transition its fuel load so perfectly. When you think about it logically 0.3 seconds is only + or - 18M (Using 1.28 lap accross 5338M lap).

Now me being a mere mortal to think that anyone can consistently drive a F1 car within + or - 6M (0.1s) while on the limit across all variables is just incredible. After all to me 18M could represent just 1 missed break point, 1 wheel spin on exit, 1 oversteer moment, 1 understeer moment etc

As I look accross the field the lap times of most drivers have many laps where they may have lapped +.5s worse than the lap before. Yes that can be traffic, stray dogs whatever. I guess the point is that it makes the brawn really look as good as the 6 from 7 wins that it has doesn't it. After all we haven't seen such a dominant start to season in many, many years.

[PlatinumZealot]

Make the same Graph but of Webber Vs Button Vs Vettel.

[megz]

Please, use your manners.

[Chaparral]

Solirossi thats pretty much what I was saying - to be honest statistics are just statistics and will tell you what you (want) to read into them its no different in business its not the full story by any stretch of the imagination. I do watch intently the various drivers the attitude of the car etc as much as I can take in and of course the final lap time - first and foremost the visual sighting of whats happening on a lap is the best and has been for years - data is good if its applied to what the actual car does on a particular lap it does supply some very intelligent information on mapping at various parts of a circuit but its not necessarily aligned to what the driver is doing - a combination yes maybe and that comes out to a certain extent during each debrief - some are better than others at reading the story. To base an opinion on pure data just isnt fair - to any driver -think about it - more than half the field can be with 1 second of each other over a 5 km circuit - that to me is mind boggling in its own right given the differences in car design all these guys can drive and to be honest I just dont see the point in trying to read sector times into a particular drivers success or failure. As an aside to the OP my favourite racing formula is Formula Ford having seen tens of dozens of races at OP, EC and back in the Amaroo Park days so Ive probably tripped over you in the pits over the years

[paused]

Lets also not forget that the first step in any job is to keep the boss happy. Sounds like the RB team were very happy with how MW drove. Despite what the stats say (esp. in Q3 where Vettel has been lighter 7 times & yes you can correct me if that is wrong) after fuel correction I would say Mark & Seb are unquestionably the closest matched pair on the grid.

Quote below from Christian Horner

Then there was a tremendous middle stint from Mark, a really impressive middle stint with a heavy car. He did a very impressive job. He was just quicker in the middle stint and that is what flipped them around. Mark, you mustn't take anything away from it because it was an exceptionally good drive.

and more

Q. Going into this season a lot of people were saying that this was a make-or-break year for either Mark or Sebastian, yet both appear to be impressing so far. How do you judge their seasons?

CH: They are both bringing the best out of each other. If you look at the race pace today, Mark didn't make a single mistake. It was a very impressive drive from him, so they work well as a team and they are pushing each other to the maximum. I think both have really raised their game, both are at different stages of their career and for the team it is very healthy.

[mr moda]

I believe the unfortunate reality with Webber is that the media over the years have often spoke of his ability to out qualify all of his team mates and the ill advised decisions to go to teams which were on the down hill slide. All of this has only heightened the voracious appetite to see what he could do with a car that was up to the challenge. With the RBR he certainly has a nice piece of kit and, I agree with Chap that he may still be finding his feet at the pointy end. This IMHO will have an effect on driving style when previously all he did was 1 - Ring the absolute crap out of the car to try to get a point or 2 - Troll around the circuit as the car was just not capable. Remember he has had to do this for many years. Now he has a bonafide chance to be up the front, the mindset needs to change as well as his style.
Personally I do believe data can tell a lot but only if you know all of the outside factors that are associated with it. I would be interested to see his laptimes from his other races this year.

[mstar]

well webbers race pace is always questioned by people becuase of him relative to his "good teammates". Against Pizzonia/clien he was rarely? slower in the races (btu yer pizzonia/clien qualified so low down nobody really thought anything of it)
against Heidfield he was on race pace slightly shaded but sure he got more points.
i THINK heidfield had faster laps in race then mark. Also, was it DC who said he was faster in races then mark???????