Mark Webber sector times - Turkey.

[wondergoblin]

Hi, my first post...

I haven't seen anyone mention this, although I have suspected it.

I watched the live timing feed from Instanbul on the official web site and I saw something. I've even emailed formula1.com to see if I can get the sector times for the race for the top 3. (I'm unaware of anywhere else that has them.)

During his 1 and 2 stints, Webber's lap times were very inconsistent. During the laps I was comparng him to Button and Vettel, the other cars were either a few seconds down the road or behind him, and at that time no lapped cars, so he was able to just drive.

In some sectors he was within a tenth of Button (who was doing consistent sector times) and even "purpled" a sector or two towards the end of the stints; on others he dropped up to seven tenths just in Sector 2- and he seemed to have real issues with Sector 2.

A good driver reels off consistent laps one after the other. But to roughly match a time in Sector 2, then drop seven tenths next time around, then match a time, then drop five tenths- no. That isn't a setup issue for that sector becasue it would be a consistent loss. That isn't tyres going off unless they can come on again. Going up and down all the time is the sign of someone who is making lots of little mistakes.

There is an issue- maybe he is overdriving trying to assert himself against Vettel. Maybe the car is fundamentally a "Vettel" car which he has to drive around because it doesn't suit his style (maybe the reduced testing he did because of the leg is showing itself). Why is conjecture, but one thing is true- he can do what is required, but not consistently. And that's not good.

Hmmm... Interesting... Has anyone else noticed this?

[Scotracer]

Sector times might be asking for a lot but here's every lap of the race:

http://www.fia.com/EN-GB/MEDIACENTRE/F1 ... alysis.pdf

Enjoy

Just as a tid-bit, here's Jensons' middle stint:

19 1:29.011
20 1:28.616
21 1:28.900
22 1:28.705
23 1:28.719
24 1:28.671
25 1:28.744
26 1:28.532
27 1:28.479
28 1:28.184
29 1:28.122
30 1:28.133
31 1:27.967
32 1:27.852
33 1:28.047
34 1:28.084
35 1:28.161
36 1:27.981
37 1:28.735
38 1:28.062
39 1:27.940
40 1:27.579
41 1:27.819
42 1:27.851

Very impressive =D>

[ISLAMATRON]

or maybe he was hit by a car and is struggling with his fitness a little... he still has a limp

Webber is a great and greatly underrated driver and has been so since he raced for Minardi.

[FGD]

Sector times might be asking for a lot but here's every lap of the race:

http://www.fia.com/EN-GB/MEDIACENTRE/F1 ... alysis.pdf

Enjoy

Just as a tid-bit, here's Jensons' middle stint:

19 1:29.011
20 1:28.616
21 1:28.900
22 1:28.705
23 1:28.719
24 1:28.671
25 1:28.744
26 1:28.532
27 1:28.479
28 1:28.184
29 1:28.122
30 1:28.133
31 1:27.967
32 1:27.852
33 1:28.047
34 1:28.084
35 1:28.161
36 1:27.981
37 1:28.735
38 1:28.062
39 1:27.940
40 1:27.579
41 1:27.819
42 1:27.851

Very impressive =D>

Amazing to consider these lap times were posted in Button's second stint. He lapped a few cars in this run but you can barely tell. Awesome!

[wondergoblin]

or maybe he was hit by a car and is struggling with his fitness a little... he still has a limp

Sorry, I can't agree with that being a factor. My reason is that the laps I was looking at were in stints 1 and 2. Tiredness should not have been an issue at the start of a race. If he has a fitness issue in the first ten laps of a race, then he simply shouldn't be in the car.

I'm not out to rag Mark just because- IMO any driver who makes it to F1 is a better driver than most. (I've driven open wheelers myself- I moved up from the NSW FFord championship a couple of years before Mark started, so I've watched him for years.) However, it has always seemed that he is better at individual laps than stringing together a stint- or even a race. This is the first time that I've looked at the times that support that- and according to LG, the times don't lie.

Webber's second stint times to compare to Button's. As mentioned, around the end of the stint they started on traffic. So look at, say, laps 20 to 30. It's not the neat +/-.1 of a second of Jenson's. (Rhetorical question) What happened lap 25? Lap 27? Four of those ten laps are slower than the preceeding lap by more of .1/sec.

20 1:29.222
21 1:29.057
22 1:29.190 ^
23 1:29.189
24 1:28.814
25 1:29.247 ^
26 1:28.774
27 1:29.018 ^
28 1:28.455
29 1:28.700 ^
30 1:28.791
31 1:28.455
32 1:28.456
33 1:28.549
34 1:28.662
35 1:28.533
36 1:28.504
37 1:28.404
38 1:28.323
39 1:28.280
40 1:27.833
41 1:27.893
42 1:27.809

Anyway, it's just something I've noticed. It seemed to me more obvious while I was watching the sector times, and without being able to reproduce those, who'd believe me anyway???

[ISLAMATRON]

that is a good point wondergoblin, it was the first stint

only other thing I can think of is maybe the wind, maybe the RBR is more susceptible to being upset by the wind with those shark fins... but then it would have done the same to SV... how consistent were his laptimes?

[bjpower]

to throw in my 2 cents i have damaged knees.
and you have your good days and bad.
it being the first stint doesnt matter.
sometimes your leg is just acting up.
iv never broken my leg, but i assume you come across the same issue.
one day your grand the next your finding it hard to walk.

[Chaparral]

who'd believe me anyway

No one really - link??

So you were a FF racer in NSW well PM your credentials mate I'll check them out if you dont mind - I get sick to death of these Webber v Vettel or just plain Webber bashing threads its the same on 10 Tenths or GP.com whatever the guy finally has a car after 8-9 years thats competitive and he's learning what its like to be at the pointy end and hopefully he will have a win or three he's a racer first and foremost not a Jim Clark. I dont knock any driver as I guess under whatever circumstances they deserve to be there and if Button wins this year fantastic he's in the right car at the right time and good luck to him but its got tp be a tempered adjudication of his talent - he's a good pilot Ive yet to see him race and thats a fact.

[roost89]

Webber's second stint times to compare to Button's. As mentioned, around the end of the stint they started on traffic. So look at, say, laps 20 to 30. It's not the neat +/-.1 of a second of Jenson's. (Rhetorical question) What happened lap 25? Lap 27? Four of those ten laps are slower than the preceeding lap by more of .1/sec.

20 1:29.222
21 1:29.057
22 1:29.190 ^
23 1:29.189
24 1:28.814
25 1:29.247 ^
26 1:28.774
27 1:29.018 ^
28 1:28.455
29 1:28.700 ^
30 1:28.791
31 1:28.455
32 1:28.456
33 1:28.549
34 1:28.662
35 1:28.533
36 1:28.504
37 1:28.404
38 1:28.323
39 1:28.280
40 1:27.833
41 1:27.893
42 1:27.809

Anyway, it's just something I've noticed. It seemed to me more obvious while I was watching the sector times, and without being able to reproduce those, who'd believe me anyway???

In your lap 22 (you marked it) he only dropped 0.1s but, what else was on track? Was he alone and trying to catch someone or was he in a group?
If alone, I can see him pushing to catch the person in front, that tends to make you more prone to small mistakes. In a group, another could make a mistake and ruin the lap.
As has been said, weather also plays a role.
I'm sure if you looked at every other driver you'd find the same things happening.

Unfortunately, I couldn't catch or listen to the race as I was driving at the time and my radio doesn't pick up the F1 broadcast from the BBC.

[ISLAMATRON]

What about local yellows?

[tommylommykins]

Graphs help


Oops... I've formatted that slightly wrong: mark's times should be shifted one lap to the right.

[bjpower]

it could have been anything that would cause the lap time diffs,
he had 3rd tied up why stress the engine - until he had a shot at 2nd.
I like webber pity hes mister unlucky

[Conceptual]

who'd believe me anyway

No one really - link??

So you were a FF racer in NSW well PM your credentials mate I'll check them out if you dont mind - I get sick to death of these Webber v Vettel or just plain Webber bashing threads its the same on 10 Tenths or GP.com whatever the guy finally has a car after 8-9 years thats competitive and he's learning what its like to be at the pointy end and hopefully he will have a win or three he's a racer first and foremost not a Jim Clark. I dont knock any driver as I guess under whatever circumstances they deserve to be there and if Button wins this year fantastic he's in the right car at the right time and good luck to him but its got tp be a tempered adjudication of his talent - he's a good pilot Ive yet to see him race and thats a fact.

Chill it.

Wondergoblin asked a question, provided some evidence, and asked if anyone else had specific edvidence (sector times).

Either provide them, find them, or don't post and wait for someone else to do it (like the graph that clearly shows the lack of laptime Mark had compared to Button.)

And I have watched Jenson win 6 races this season. Are you even tuned in?

[SoliRossi]

Hi Wondergoblin.

I dont think this shows an inability on Marks part at all, I have watched live timing every race this season and Marks laps have been very consistent indeed. Go back to monaco and look at his middle stint, it was mezmorizing.

Anyway back to the point, i think the inconsistentcies that you noted were down to the car. And the fact that for Mark to get the lap times to Match Button he was much much closer to the cars limit than Jens was. More than anything it demonstrates that the Brawn was able to do those times whilst being at say 90% (a guess there for demonstration purposes) or its potential, where as the RB5 was doing the fast times at say 95% of the cars capacity. In other words Mark was a lot closer to the edge lapping at this times than Jens was.

Also in referance to S2, Mark and Jens were captured prior to the podium talking and Jens was saying he was flat through Turn 8 and the car was 'off this planet' where as Mark said he had to lift every corner.

Comparing Marks and Sebs lap times is not a good comparison as Seb was always on fresher tyres and lighter fuel. But Horner said in his Q&A at autosport that the sole reason Mark jumped Seb was because his middle stint was amazing. His words were something like, did not make one single mistake.

So there are many reasons why lap times can fluctuate and it will very from track to track and driver to driver. My explanations may be incorrect but if you continue to watch live timing over the remainder of the season you will start to see how consistent his lap times are.

[ringo]

Looking at lap 35 to 41, from the chart, it looks like the Red bull kicked in for Webber, its a similar trend to Button from laps 25 go 33.
Maybe the Brawn comes into its own more consistently and deals with fuel load better.